Wow! and some answers to some questions


Heye all:

lots of drama over AFA activism in St. Louis

Did ya know that George W. Veditz was elected president of NAD in 1904 in….. where?  St Louis

yep – george is leading the way.  thanks buddy!

now re: the drama – when i mentioned drama king and queen i was referring to Barry Sewell and Harleylady – they make a cute couple dont they?  (so for the other folks who took immediate offense when i wasnt even thinking of u – easy does it)

i got me peace boots on due to all the b.s. that be flying. we give it the boot.

why i single Barry and buddy out? cuz they done this dance before and before and before and before but some folks dont know that cuz they have a shelf life memory of .10 or because they only want to see what they want to see or cuz they only pay attention to things they THINK are about them when in fact they often have nothing to do with them.

Basically Barry and Buddies DETEST social justice and activism.  Barry have condemned the IDC, NAD, DBC, CAD, DHF, and AFA.  Harleylady has threatened to protest DBC in Milwaukee, in Washington DC 2009 and 2011 but never shows up.

And the reason why its called “drama” is because it is all yellow journalism / sensationalism based on falsehoods to stir up trouble and distract folks from the truth and justice and to try to suppress activism.  And the fact that Deafread carries that stuff – well ’tis a pity.  (and all this crap about AFA being like Malcolm X ohhh please folks do some studying – there is NO NO NO comparison – none at all)

Now regarding the short walk through of a ENT Audiology waiting area in a huge hospital complex that is associated with CID, an oral only school in St. Louis, by a few peaceful folks – well – knowledge is power folks.

Take a good hard look at who is making a big stink over that simple action and who is LEAPING to condemn and chastise while the powers that be are mute.  No child was harmed.  No parents were terrorized.  No arrests were made.  Some truth material was left behind just as materials are left all over hospitals.  Just go to any waiting room and you will see plenty of materials folks.  There was no confrontation, there was no hostilities, there was no aggression, there was no pushing and shoving, there was no arrests, there was not even any civil DISOBEDIENCE in that hospital walk through.  There was just a few folks walking through a waiting room to see what there is to be seen.  To get a look at what the system looks like.  And this clinic is a direct feeder to CID – they actually have the doctors / residents go into CID and see the kids – they are connected.  And we just examining and illuminating the connection.

It is mighty telling to see which folks are so quick to condemn this peaceful examination of the unexamined.

Pattern anyone smile – anytime u see the bs flying.  Duck or say quack quack and play along or STAND for the truth and justice. Its real illuminating to see who is doing what right now.

We on the truth campaign – with or without you.

Now pls know that i know how many of you are WORRIED about what other folks think of us.  I see u quaking and shaking about how things “look.”  and how u might be seen as complicit simply because you too have a dB gain.  No worries.

I can assure you that the greater public that is just beginning to be told the truth by us is saying “what took you so long to stand and challenge this oppression” more loudly than any of the nukkers who are saying “you should dress nicer” or “you should do this…. but you should not do that….” etc etc etc.  and while some folks spend hours debating what and how OTHERS should do things – we be on the move.  with or without u – we are on the move and we are LEGIONS.

I have seen it – folks – GOOD folks are coming forward.  i thank u and i love u.  Truly.  Ur truths shine.  I hear them i feel them i know them and they make me cry and they forge me forward and these truths are being told not only by the Deaf survivors of Oralism but also by their parents.  Yep i done seen a parent walk through the EHDI 2012 exhibit shaking their head in disgust at all the propaganda spread out on those tables – these parents know what is true.  They know that their Deaf child (baby, youth or adult) is beautiful as is (with or without speech or Hearing) they KNOW and they know that anything contrary to that truth is unjust and prejudicial and basically EHDI 2012 is one big ole myth-a-making factory.  (see below for some more truths)

The parents are starting to tell the truth and their children are starting to feel it is safe to speak the truth.

this is HUGE folks.  HUGE.  More masks of the systems and the enablers / collaborators r coming down now.

so pls know that folks can tell us – dress this way, talk this way, walk this way – and we who are truth seekers will continue to love you from afar but we will NOT change our focus from the truth force, soul force, love force.  We will NOT.

and pls know – that our peace STAND is really upsetting the systems – they r like FREAKED OUT – yikes they r running here and there and everywhere trying to stir up things so that we will go off the course and REACT and get UGLY or waste our time in a blogwar but we will not.  We be all love and flowers.  Firm Firm Firm and TRUTHFUL.  Truth and love always win – think of it always said Gandhi.

Looks like we got a bit of a blue tape fiasco going by some folks.  no worries – it helps flush out those who care and dare and those who just like to stir up the pot or who like to jump to whatever side they think will serve them.  ’tis a pity.

NAD i thank u for standing firm.  i see some folks are trying to misrepresent u – guilt by association – ohhh so yawn.  no worries.  its all good.  this way we know what is what and who is who.

oh and re: The HOLEism – latest batch of unholyiness – no worries.  im gonna let him string it all up and see who shows up in various spaces to play along with him – just giving him more rope to ensnare himself and others with.  Its their own doing and undoing.  Our eyes and hearts remain on the prize – social justice not nonsense in text boxes on the internet.  We have found our FEET and we STAND.  Life is GRAND.

some answers to some questions

In my previous post explaining that there was so much to share re: St. Louis that it would be best and easiest if folks simply asked what they wanted to know so i could reply accordingly so u dont have to weed through long posts or vlogs to gather the info you are seeking – only one set of questions came via Candy, which focused on AFA’s meeting with EHDI reps, and since the reply requires some length I have posted it here in this entry for all to see as some of you may have similar questions or it might prompt some new ones.

Candy’s question: (see previous entry comments section to see her full comment and my note there)

I do have one question for now. What really transpired at the meeting with EHDI where AFA walked out? Perhaps you can tell us who met (who were there) and what recommendation/demands were proposed, what took place (exchange of conversation) and why AFA walked out. (looks like more than one questions!).

My reply – NOTE – i am not replying as an AFA representative here – she asked me as Patti at Patti’s People of the Eye place so here is Patti (as in me, myself, and I)’s reply

AFA asked if we could videotape the meeting –  John Eichwald of CDC said sure and Dr. Karl White said NO so we didn’t and thus cant show ya all any video.  ’tis a pity

Who was present – EHDI representatives and AFA representatives and some community members and three interpreters

for AFA demands – see the 5 demands at  they have been public since Dec 30, 2011

the EHDI representatives declined to meet any of the 5 demands.  We mentioned the lack of an US Dept of Education representative in the EHDI conference system and how “I” of INTERVENTION seems via the EHDI implementation bodies and the conference focuses on medical solution whereas it is clearly marked to be part of IDEA PART C thus there needs to be a stronger role from US Dept of Education in terms of early intervention for language (ASL+English) intervention

we discussed the disparity in Deaf representation and ASL in EHDI conference system
– EHDI conference planning committee only having 4 Deaf members out of 19 members.
– lack of ASL+English presentations out of the 140 presentations at EHDI
– images promoting the conference in hotel and near conference area and program book heavily promoting medical solution – ASL rarely displayed

Early on at one point Dr. White said “I’m always open to being replaced.”  So later after much discussion on the INEQUALITIES in the system and in the EHDI 2012 conference, Dr. Eichwald (CDC) asked for some suggestions for improvement and we suggested Dr. White step down from his post as he had freely suggested earlier without any prompting from us.

A few times the EHDI reps did a bit of pointing the finger at Deaf leaders by either saying they were active in EHDI things or by saying so and so hadnt responded to an email  but we know that those individuals dont really have any REAL power and they are used for the appearance of inclusion or to scapegoat and/or deflect.

The heart of the problem, which we put on the table is that the EHDI system via CDC, NCHAM, MCHB, HRSA, AAP etc and the EHDI 2012 conference focus disproportionately on a medical solution that encourages and at times mandates the denial of a fully natural and accessible language and that ASL has been oppressed for over a 130 years and needs to have its day in the sun.  This campaign against ASL and social justice has resulted in estrangements within families and relations.  the system needs to put ASL+English at the forefront and not have it as a side note listed in parenthesis under services provided by audiologists or speech therapists and it should not require five clicks to reach any information about ASL+English.

we walked out of the meeting as it was circular and because they are WELL AWARE of the disparity in the overall program and conference and how they are bent towards an over utilized approach (medical / pathological) which does not have consistent and reliable results and comes at a hefty price for the child, family and our society.

Later that evening two of us saw Dr. Eichwald and he said he was moved by what we shared and heard our points.  I am pinning a bit of hope (im a hoper – its what i do) that he will work hard to improve his area in terms of delivery and balance as we strive for justice and equality.  This will be an indicator of whether or not he truly HEARD us.

Now im off to wash my cars – its spring here for the moment

to all the beautiful folks on the ground who stood our ground peacefully and lovefully – you shine.  seriously i admire u so much.
Gratitude is the memory of the heart ~ Jean Massieu
Peace and love ALL,



48 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Jean Boutcher
    Mar 11, 2012 @ 22:34:07

    WoW — Dizzzzzzy!

  2. Charles the Rogue
    Mar 11, 2012 @ 22:40:34

    Fantastic blog. You aimed right in the BS’s target. That’s what I wanted to hear. I will root for you and deaf organizations all the way!

    “We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow… our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.” ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

    Cheers Charles the Rogue

  3. antonia lindsey
    Mar 12, 2012 @ 00:02:38

    Patti, what you describe as “pushback” within the Deaf community happens with all liberation movements as people face the challenge of making the invisible VISIBLE. When we face the conspiracy of silence from within (dare I stand up, speak out, break stride with bearing up) and without (will we be targets of worse oppression if we are in plain sight). I am intrigued to see what Eichwald at CDC is about and if he is open to more input, strategic input and from which angles to approach that. I think those pictures of the survivors, “I will not forget” series with childood & adult photo & art need to become a video now and we need more from the parents too!

  4. dianrez
    Mar 12, 2012 @ 00:03:42

    There are a lot of excellent points here…and the emphasis on peaceful protests is especially appreciated. I still stand with that, especially in the apparent fruitful connection that was made with Dr. Eichwald.

    It is admirable to style it as a grassroots (old terms: peacenik, hippie, peoples’ protest) when it is consistent and the goals clear to all. However, PR expertise is typically a weakness of any grassroots movement and this does not exempt AFA.

    Mistakes were made that could have been spun as ugly scenarios by opponents This does not do AFA any good even when the outcome was uneventful.

    For this reason I don’t agree re. the impromptu schools and hospital visits and feel that leafletting could be done at a prescribed distance from them. Visits for the purpose of observation and reporting could be done by designated representatives who then ask permission to meet with people and to be given tours. In such a meeting, information can be exchanged officially and materials left behind. These are less likely to be gathered up and discarded afterwards.

    I hope that AFA realizes that it is time to take on a spokesman status and obtain professional PR training from this point on. The groundswell is there, a desire for balance is there, and more people than ever want a comprehensive outlook instead of a medical one. The time is right. We need to be properly equipped and prepared for it.

  5. Mistee
    Mar 12, 2012 @ 00:39:14

    Good evening, Patti…..I was told by Dawn that you called them drama queens and kings. I read your blog in here and you said you were referring Barry and Harleylady as king and queen. It is up to you to talk with Dawn and find out what is going on between you guys. Yes I would say about Barry and Deb because of their wild assumptions going on. Assumption isn’t one of my personalities! LOL So anyway, they do not know how to stop allowing themselves to be agitated and disturbed; they permit themselves to be fearful and intimidated and cowardly and unsettled by their wildest assumptions. This is how I watched them to influence others to another who shared the false assumption. I did wrote my private journal and brought new quote for everyone including Barry and Deb, too. “You see to the end of your nose (which isn’t very far), and you assume that anything that doesn’t feel good isn’t good. You cannot see the end of your mind and one of your assumption personality that does belong to you not others.” For few days, deaf people everywhere are struggling through life with damaged emotions by their assumptions and this is what they got themselves mess up with. They were hurting because they allowed to be like this way. I knew they need is to face the truth. You can’t be set free while living in denial. You can’t pretend that certain assumption things didn’t happen to you. I noticed that they do not patience in their personalities. I wrote on my facebook comment under my status…..”Today we live in a fast-paced society that seems to be placing more and more demands on us with each passing year. People are hurrying everywhere, and they’re often rude and short-tempered. We know it is true. We need to learn to be patience and give them time to give us the information.” Demand is their favorite thing to do!

    I enjoyed to read your blog! =0)

  6. handeyes
    Mar 12, 2012 @ 01:10:07

    Jean – weeee – hold tight smile.

    Charles – bringing quotes from Martin – ya made my eyes water. Big time. Soul Force all the way.

    Antonia – yep back lash is a _____ they say but it also back fires because it is not truth or love based so no worries. We just watch and see who scrambles and squabbles. Re: the Lies AG Bell told my parents – it is VERY powerful and definitely something they want suppressed so we just keep singing these songs of freedom.

    dianrez – i truly hope folks who feel they can do it better will so take up action. time to get out of those arm chairs folks. And pls know no matter how ya do some folks r gonna criticize. Its just the way it works. No worries. We on the move.

    Look forward to see how the media savvy folks DO IT. Im all eyes. Im being sincere here. My guess is once they actually start moving they will realize ohhhh no matter what ya do and how “professional” ya do it – someone is gonna go screaming foul and then they will say well some attention is better than no attention at all.

    We – we just be on the truth campaign – that is what leads us forward one step at a time.

    and AFA had intentions to rally on the public sidewalk near a window looking into the conference lobby area but they got tossed off the sidewalk by the hotel security and Deaf folks were being kicked out of Union Station (see John E.’s report about what happened to his wife and grandchild). So in light of the fact that EHDI 2012 was blocking from any peaceful activism being seen by the conference attendees, the folks said well lets go visit some other locations where Oralism and Audism are at work to see what is to be seen.

    Ya all say no no dont go – that is fine and your choice.

    Me myself and i – know we still live in the US of A and still intend to utilize my first amendment rights cuz they say if u dont use them u will loose them.

    There is more – there is more. And hence plan B and C etc.

    I do know that the way we walk is not gonna jive with everyone and that is fine with me. My disappointment is with folks assuming certain things without having the full information. I will also be blunt here too – i think some of the criticism is pretty naive. If you had seen and experienced all we had experienced you would be in awe with how good folks were and are. Proof of this is how good everyone is just chilling as folks who weren’t even there are rushing to distort and discredit peaceful activism while defending oppressive systems.

    Mistee –
    oh Dawn thought i was talking about her – hmmm. Wow

    re: Barry and Harleylady – i dont think its assumptions on their parts. I think its intentional misinformation. Just based on their HYSTERYcs of the past.

    Again no worries – love ’em from a far. Regarding how we are an instant gratification and instant dissatisfaction society – yep. no wonder we never get anywhere smile

    ur writing made me think of:
    “Nobody sees a flower – really – it is so small it takes time – we haven’t time – and to see takes time, like having a friend takes time.” – Georgia O’Keefe.

    im glad i have been able to take the time to see some beautiful flowers!

    And wow 350 + hits in the short time this blog entry was up. Hope all the visitors have taken the time to smell the flowers.

    Thank you all

    peace and love,


  7. AimeeTheSuperMom
    Mar 14, 2012 @ 17:09:02

    I’m the hearing mother of two deaf sons. I have five children and I taught all five of my children sign language before they could speak. We went out of our way as parents to introduce our deaf sons to the Deaf culture so they would know they had choices. Both of my boys do have cochlear implants after I MADE THE CHOICE TO DO THAT FOR THEM. I wasn’t brainwashed in any way. I was given all of my options and put serious thought and prayer into my decision for my children. I have gone way out of my way to encourage other parents in my position to do things the same way.

    Until now. The behavior of the people involved in the EHDI protest has led me to believe that the Deaf culture is the worst possible option for my boys. Let me explain.

    I did what you claim to want. I gave my children choices. But, I also enrolled one of them, the youngest, at one of the schools AFA protested. I have seen the video footage posted on youtube where you actually show the school WITH ITS ADDRESS and the children who I can identify. YOU PUT THOSE CHILDREN AT RISK PUTTING THEM IN THE PUBLIC EYE LIKE THAT. SHAME ON YOU ALL! You stood in front of my child’s school laughing and mocking calling the school’s administration “ridiculous” for calling the police in an effort to protect the children. They weren’t being ridiculous. They have an obligation to protect children from strangers. Those people had no way of knowing the protestors’ intentions or what they were capable of. It makes me sick that those people were anywhere near my child without my consent. I would never EVER disrespect you as parents by approaching your child’s school or your child that way. It was a complete violation of my child’s safety and my right as a parent to make an INFORMED decision.

    Here’s what really gets to me; AFA protested that school because it believes the school teaches us parents not to sign with our kids, threatens to take away their therapy, and a ton of other nonsense. Nothing could be further from the truth! That school has loved and supported us and our children from day one. They have known all along that we used sign language and have respected our choices. In fact, they learned some of our son’s signs so that they could communicate with him. Before you go and violate someone’s school in that way, at least be sure you know what you’re talking about. If anyone wants to know the video I’m referring to, here it is: You can clearly see that children are outside with teachers and those two women walked right up there anyway with no respect for the children’s concern. Teachers clearly indicate that they needed to stop, but the women kept right on going. AND THEN YOU POSTED IT PUBLICLY AS AN EXAMPLE OF SUCCESS?? This is an example of sheer disrespect and has now put AFA decades behind where it once was.

    I’m going to be very clear. Were in not for people like Dawn and other Deaf people we know who are open minded and willing to teach with love and compassion and respect for me as the parent, we would pull sign language and the Deaf communities from our children’s lives immediately. LEARN FROM THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING IT THE RIGHT WAY! They are doing it one step at a time with kindness and care. Dawn even apologized to me on behalf of the AFA even though she had absolutely nothing to do with their disgraceful behavior. She, and people like her are the only reason we haven’t turned and run from people like the AFA.

    Here’s what it comes down to; EHDI isn’t your worst enemy. Your behavior is. EHDI will never dictate what happens in a child’s home or in his life. His parents are the ones who get the final say. You show parents far more with your behavior than EHDI or anyone else can ever do to steer us parents away from you and your ideas. The sad thing is that some of your ideas are really, really good. They’re being lost and wasted because your methods are cruel, overwhelming, and disrespectful to parents.

    If your intentions are true and your group’s goals matter to you, it’s time regroup and rethink the way that you’re going about getting your point across. You want a parent to help you? I will help you in all sincerity. I will work with anyone willing to meet me half way. But it’s going to take a lot of work and effort to prove that you are never going to treat those children and their families the way you treated them at the EHDI conference. You’ll have a lot of work to do to repair your image, and until that’s done, I’m not sure that there is much hope for AFA to bring about change. Bullying breeds anger. You’ll catch more flies with honey.

  8. handeyes
    Mar 15, 2012 @ 01:32:47


    Thank you for stopping by. Clarifications seem to be in order.
    1. Moog’s address is public information
    2. the sidewalks are public property
    3. The two people who walked up to the school did so calmly and peacefully.
    4. If there was DANGER then the teachers should have brought the kids in school. There was no danger.
    5. Ms. Moog’s statement that if a person chooses to speak they can be part of American culture and that is the most desirable choice to make is prejudicial and dangerous.
    6. there is nothing in the video saying that the police are ridiculous

    there is a statement saying the police say its cool and just becareful of the busy street.

    If you felt that a small group of peaceful protestors waving ILY was so dangerous and damaging then your issues should be with:
    1. the school
    2. the police

    I am glad that you recognize that AFA ideas are really, really good. I can accept that you prefer different approaches.

    re: “You’ll catch more flies with honey.” Perhaps this is part of our misunderstanding too. We are not trying to catch any flies.

    Truth force / Soul force all the way.



  9. AimeeTheSuperMom
    Mar 15, 2012 @ 02:37:01

    Listen to your video again. As the third police car pulls in, the videographer says “Ridiculous. It’s ridiculous.”

    The AFA showed no respect for my rights as a parent or my child’s rights to privacy. That’s all I’m saying. Your sarcasm at the end reiterates your lack of respect for my child and me as well. If I was on the fence about what was best for my children and others like him, I’m not anymore.

  10. handeyes
    Mar 15, 2012 @ 02:59:26

    Aimee – thanks for letting me know there is audio saying ridiculous. Note we have no idea WHO is saying that. If it is one of the demonstrators – it might be because 3 cop cars are a bit much considering there were only a few folks there.

    re: sarcasm – nope. that was not sarcasm. That was and is sincerity. I really do think that this may be the heart of our difference. U think we have to grovel and beg for your approval and that should seek to catch flies with honey.

    NOPE that is not what we are aiming for. We are aiming for social justice and equality

    The fact that u think we have to beg for it or that folks should be made to feel it is criminal to exercise their first amendment rights, well ’tis a pity.

    It is more detrimental for children to be under the care and education of a program and director that promotes the notion that to speak is to be part of American Culture and to sign is just to only be part of “Deaf culture.”

    This is wrong because:
    1. its false. Deaf AMERICANS – signing and/or speaking are part of American culture – whether or not your directors likes it or not

    2. its prejudicial

    3. its discriminatory

    4. its unjust

    5. its biased

    6. it is language bigotry and a form of audism

    re: honey – there is an odd thing about that honey. When i have stood firm with love and peace – more folks wake up and come forward and do right.

    via truth force / soul force

    if you are TRULY worried about your son – worry about audism and linguicism.

    re: the fence – straddling it can be very uncomfortable, yes?

    aimee – u might want to find out how many folks are paraded through the school on a regular basis without your knowledge or approval.

    I have a dream that all little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by their dB or speech, but by the content of their character.

    i hope some day you will share this dream too.



  11. Dawn
    Mar 16, 2012 @ 14:18:17


    Just wow! You claimed you hoped for social equality and justice. You just failed in that miserably. You cannot fathom to understand this at all. Your banters toward a hearing mother (comments above) were done with social inequality and injustice.

    As a Deaf person, you disgusted me to the core. People like you are the reason why our job as educators is met with a great difficulty!

    Do me a favor. Be a fly and get yourself caught in the fly trap. Just be gone. You’re just a bad news.

    Oh, one more thing, you are one most “woo woo” woman I’ve come across with and it shudders me to the core that people like you exist. You have done nothing, but hurting hearing parents who make decisions for their Deaf babies and children. You and the likes of you are doing the great adverse effect on the education of Deaf children.

    Just be gone.


  12. Dianrez
    Mar 16, 2012 @ 15:18:23

    Dawn and Aimee, I’ll repeat that I oppose any impromptu involvement with schools or hospitals. It is because of a need to respect privacy and expectation of security within their premises. However…

    Your opposing stands and strong emotion, while taken seriously, are not helpful here.

    Despite my reservations about some of their more radical behavior, I am glad AFA is coming forward to press these points. Especially the part about ASL being a natural part of American culture rather than being an “option” apart from that culture. However I hope they will listen to advice to go about it in a more professional and thus more credible way.

    Karl White has his points, too, and one is to join the various component groups and work from within to make EHDI better. It may seem futile considering its historically dismissive attitude, but that may be changing.That applies to AFA too.

    Dawn and Aimee, partner with AFA and help make it a more persuasive organization. Their people truly believe in a better acceptance for Deaf people in the future and that overoptimistic efforts in “normalizing” deaf children has well-known inherent dangers. That huge message must not be lost in the hue and cry over AFA’s methods.

  13. handeyes
    Mar 16, 2012 @ 22:34:30

    Dawn –

    Re: aimee – she is fine. The truth is the director of her son’s school has displayed a major prejudice in her statement that to be part of American culture one must speak. that is false and language bigotry. Aimee deserves to know the truth.

    re: your opinion of me – i care not at all. In fact if you thought highly of me i would be mighty uncomfortable.

    re: THE community – most folks dont even spend a minute of time in the internet spaces you frequent and they have no idea about all this nonsense ya all be spinning and when they learn of it they all say “what is so and so’s problem” and i say “no idea” and “no worries” we truth force and soul force all the way.

    Much peace (not the absence of tension but rather the presence of justice),


  14. AimeeTheSuperMom
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 00:31:05

    To be clear, I know exactly what the director of my school has said and I know that the quote used on AFA’s signs are taken out of context. And, please don’t claim to know I’m fine. I’m not fine. I’ll be fine when the AFA learns that their methods do nothing but hurt their cause. Your sarcasm, curt responses, and lack of respect for any of the issues I’ve brought up have demonstrated how you really feel toward the parents of the children you claim to be trying to help. If this is how you treat all the parents you encounter, you and the AFA has no hope of ever finding success toward meeting their goals.

  15. handeyes
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 00:57:11


    Thanks for correcting me. All Aimee says she is NOT fine. My bad

    Re other parents – yes I have talked to many and they say thank you to AFA for standing. They are important to me too

    Re jean moogs quote it is from the film For a Deaf Son which was made by a parent. And ms moog had never issued a correction or clarification. It was no taken out of context in the film. It is clear as day and your defending it is indefensible.

    Re AFA s success – we have been successful and that is what some folks r mighty upset about

    It is good to keep knowing we r in the right track



  16. Dawn
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 01:49:50

    Such a typical airy responses from Patti. She’s brushing off anyone who isn’t on the same page with her.

    The “damage control” videos, feeble attempts on their part, I must add, are biased. If you watch how Ruthie and Mark responded, they rode on their emotions. Bad ideas if they wanted to share facts.

    Two words: too late.

    I am not interested in your peace chants. Save ’em for anyone who gives a cahoot about ’em. I’m more interested in your boot. I’d like to put on one, just like yours, to give you the boot. In the arse. That’s THE RIGHT TRACK for you.

  17. Dawn
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 02:15:21


    I believe you meant well. I do.

    Here’s my two cents why I’m not being helpful here.

    1. AFA is NOT listening to the general public’s outcry about their tactics at the schools and hospital.

    2. AFA refuses to acknowledge how we feel. Instead of validating us, Patti Durr herself called us drama queens and kings, before she retracted her comments and stated that it was meant for Barry Sewell (theHolism) and Deb Miller (HarleyLady57).

    3. Patti’s responses to a hearing mother whose son was at the school that AFA rallied at. That was downright disrespectful.

    4. Read 1, 2 and 3 again.

    Now, you’re asking me and Aimee to partner with AFA. I cannot speak for Aimee, but no thanks for me.

  18. Penny
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 07:41:14

    I want to share my thoughts here. Protest or expose ourselves with ASL to oral schools sits very well with me. NAACP members protest at public school in Texas, Coalition of faith based groups protest at District Public school, Concerned Citizens protest at Meridian public school and many more. I do not see anything wrong for AFA group showed up at oral schools in St. Louis. We are on the rampage now that more states want to close Deaf schools and send Deaf children to public schools where they lack in Deaf culture, Deaf identity, ASL and etc. It is time now that we stop making excuses and giving colorful lollipops to systems that are making fortune on Deaf children like Karl White. Hearing parents and systems want to do what benefit them.

    More and more deaf children are neglect and abuse at public schools and in their own home. They lack in education, communication, social and ASL. We need to speak up for them. No more protection for EDHI, AGB, Eugenics, hearing parents, senators, congressmen, legislators and etc. We know what is best for Deaf children. We are DEAF!

    We have stage five disease in our community as we worry too much about systems, Drs, audiologists, board members at ISD, and hearing parents who deny their own birth Deaf children to use ASL. It is like they amputated their child arms. We must remove that disease from our community and start worry about DEAF CHILDREN.

  19. handeyes
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 13:38:45

    Dawn –

    its paradoxical and contradictory for you to say “be gone” and then to keep coming back.

    and just cuz i believe in the truth – when i said drama queens and kings i was referring to barry et al leap w/o looking. everything he has put out thus far is pure crapola which is very same same ole

    so i wasnt referring to u as a Drama queen but if the shoe fits so be it.

    re: disrespectfulness – if we hold up your and aimee’s manner in addressing me and my manner in addressing you both – it is very clear who is what.

    Much peace,


  20. handeyes
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 14:20:57

    Penny –

    thank you for sharing the truth that other groups have peacefully demonstrated at schools. A prominent Deaf attorney recently shared the same – that he attended several schools in which there was demonstrations outside etc. He felt it was great exposure to seeing democracy at work and a very teachable moment.

    There actually have been many demonstrations at Deaf schools – Lexington School for the Deaf in NYC re: a superintendent selection, St. Mary’s School for the Deaf in Bufallo re: firing of a teacher, Michigan School for the Deaf re: need for bilingual education and quality teaching

    i never saw those parents screaming foul. i even saw footage of the school, the kids, etc no one went nuts

    Gallaudet University has had two major protests and some of the activities were near Kendall and MSSD – no parents screamed that they would now refuse their Deaf children to have anything to do with the Deaf community due to those protests.

    hmmmm – odd eh? one or two parents freak out in their blogspaces where they have majorly over exposed their child’s life to the public in the name of Oralism and they got the gall to say invasion of privacy re: the demonstrations when there was none.

    so folks the TRUTH –
    schools were not disrupted because:
    1. the demonstrators were peaceful and friendly
    2. it was the end of the school day
    3. the police came and said cool beans

    the visit to the ENT waiting room in the hospital was not a mistake because:
    1. the hospital and ENT wwas cool with the visit and accepted the materials
    2. security said cool beans
    3. no patients’ rooms were visited and no one was traumatized

    re: your other points – yes the hour is very late and it is very telling to see who is making a big stink over a few folks standing on a curb waving or visiting a public waiting room.

    OY – no wondering they make no progress – they are so afraid of OUR appearance that they can not even see that the wee thing that a few folks did on mon and tue would have hardly been noticed at all except for the fact that they freaked out so loudly about it.

    cops said fine. school and adults standing around near the kids didnt even bat an eye because it was SAFE.

    but hours later folks are SCREAMING – bad move bad pr when the only bad PR is coming their way. They look utterly extreme in screaming about what other civil rights groups and AMERICANS (even those who can speak) do every day.

    So why cant we?

    hmmm – that is the question of the day folks. why do some of our own folks keep trying to tie our own hands.

    i aint gonna worry about it or fret about it because the MAJORITY of the Deaf folks and allies and even the AMERI CAN people KNOW that it is WRONG to deny a Deaf child the right to AMERICAN sign language

    if they really need to be mad about something, it should be about Ms. Moog preaching a gospel of language intolerance and falsehoods.

    They dont like that we exposed that and its making ’em UPSET.

    We on the right track folks.

    the more they SCREAM – the more we see wow – they have forgotten what it truly means to be an AMERICAN. they think to be American one must speak, one must dress in a certain way, one must walk in a certain way, one must PLAY (yep i see ya all playing) in a certain way, etc

    they FORGET that Gandhi wore a dhoti and got a whole EMPIRE to stop oppressing his people

    they FORGET that MLK jr said “A right delayed is a right denied.”

    they FORGET that Gandhi, MLK Jr, and Rosa Parks engaged in civil DISobedience. they actually challenged injustices by exposing them into the light of the day and they actually PEACEFULLY disobeyed laws to illustrate injustice. They were all three arrested.

    They were all three mischaracteristed, slandered, libeled and attacked but still they stood and stood again.

    Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice EVERYWHERE – MLK JR

    so we gonna stand for that which is right just true and good. we gonna stand in the sweltering heat of Washington DC in july 2011, we gonna stand on the steps of the Volta Bureau and lovingly say Ya Basta AG B, we gonna stand in St Louis outside the gates of EHDI 101 that is always open to non-conference registrants and FREE but this time they closed the doors so we STOOD, we gonna stand in front of Oral ONLY schools and say howdy we see you and we love u. You should not be rapping the hands of children with rulers, you should not be isolating kids for signing during LUNCH TIME, you should not be chastising 17 year olds who already speak and hear a plenty for doing the hand talk during their free time, you should not be making bigoted statements that if you use ASL you are part of Deaf culture and if you use speech you are part of American Culture. You should not fill your waiting room with propaganda tracts for oral / aural ONLY and have nothing there about Deaf culture and American sign language beyond an ABC quilt that parents cant take home with them.

    we gonna stand



  21. Candy
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 15:47:11

    This is the exact quote Moog said and it was taken out of context by AFA:

    “I think that being born deaf does not in and of itself make you

    a member of a different culture unless you so choose to be a

    member of that culture. I understand that there is another

    language, ASL, and that if you choose to learn ASL and to only

    communicate in ASL, you are part of that deaf culture. However,

    if you choose to learn spoken English, then you can be part of

    the American culture…”

    I am one of many who were born into deaf culture, that are opposing what AFA/DBC/DHF is doing. We do not condone their behavior/approach.

  22. handeyes
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 16:52:29

    Candy – you have NOT provided the full quote as is evident from ur …
    selective typing u got. i have seen ur … trick in the past – its a red flag to see what u r omitting.

    so here it is folks:
    go to and move the playhead to 4:47

    and see for urself – u can see the tone and the spots in which Ms. Moog choices to ennunciate and over emphasize and no it is not a habit due to her working with Deaf children oral / aural only – she is EMPHASING those words and using that TONE for a reason.
    tis the season for misreason

    and you will see Jean Moog finish that prejudicial statement that Candy partially typed out above with

    “and that should be the choice of the families and the children.”

    she is saying OVERTLY it is better to speak so that one can be part of American culture and that is the best choice for the families and the children

    this is not cool – her presenting things as if folks who learn ASL are only part of Deaf culture and folks who do not speak are not part of American Culture. only the Deaf who learn to speak are part of American culture – wow!

    What parent presented with this biased and bigoted statement by an EXPERT would say – I choose ASL for my child so that s/he can never be part of American culture?

    thankfully some parents know bs. when they smell it but some parents feel a HUGE burden that they must go the oral / aural only route if they want their child to:
    be independent
    be part of American culture

    both of those notions are rooted in audism and completely false. Deaf ASL+English folks ARE part of American culture and they ARE independent

    and folks might be interest to see what Moog is saying right before that quote – start the play head at 4:30 and see her say:
    “Parents need to know the consequences of the choices because if you want a child to learn to talk, you must start that very young, under age five and you must educate that child in a system that focuses just on talking.”

    ie – oral / aural ONLY and then she goes on to add the false and bigoted notion that to use ASL makes one unAmerican and not part of American culture and to learn to speak English makes one part of American culture

    its yawn and old – this attempt to paint things in a binary manner. Just cuz they exclude ASL does not mean that ASL excludes English. so so so distortionistingly disorientating – leave the parents utterly confused ! wow

    Candy – re: your not approving of our behavior and approach – ya hoo. another confirmation we are on the right path.

    i also see that you not only approve the exclusion of ASL by supporting Moog, CID, Option Schools, Oral Education schools, AVT / LSL+CI, you defend these folks

    ’tis a pity seeing how that they are saying your own people who dont use spoken English are not part of American culture. but its a free country and u r free to act and BEHAVE as u see fit

    ohhh do u know that Dr. White told a couple of Deaf men a few times they would have to BEHAVE inorder to go into a session (they were registered and they were already behaving)

    its kinda odd how u r defending the behavior and conduct of the oppressive systems and totally misrepresenting our use of our first amendment rights (assemply and speech – which includes ASL folks cuz we are American and it is American Sign langauge)

    long live the consititution

    and ohhh say can you see…..



  23. Candy
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 17:41:40

    She thinks that it should be the choice of families and children, yes. That’s her opinion and we all are entitled to our opinions. She does not go out of her way to demand that all families choose that. And, I have seen some ASL advocates feeling that all children should learn ASL first, that’s their opinion, that’s fine too. Then, I have seen how some advocates demand all children learn ASL first, one cannot demand that. You can advocate but you can’t demand parents make certain choices. See the difference?

    When it comes to choices, we should respect that. If AFA advocates for ASL/Bilingual, that’s fine. But, to take that quote out of context is not cool. The quote that Moog said wasn’t exactly what the banner implies.

    Her quote isn’t saying that in order to be part of the American culture, one would need to speak.

    It’s saying you can be part of the American culture. I think the banner took the quote out of context and if you had issues with how I did not add the remaining quote then you should also have issues with how the banner misquoted Moog.

    Choices should be up to the parent. If you feel that deaf children should incorporate ASL in their lives, then you need to be careful how you advocate. Dawn’s approach is good and does not alienate parents. yours does. If you can’t see the difference, then, I guess you’re lost.

    There will always be different approaches. Oralism isn’t bad. Manualism isn’t either. This is America, all options should always be available for parents to choose and I am seeing many choosing both, which is awesome. The down side to AFA’s approach it is turning many parents away from deaf culture or changing their minds about allowing their children to be a part of both, deaf culture and the American culture.

    It’s not just me that don’t approve, Patti. It’s many in deaf culture that don’t approve.

    There were other things that AFA/DBC/DHF erroneously shared at GSLAD. Such as ICED condemning oralism. Show me where they said that? And, the babbidge report denouncing oralism, show me where it stated that (i just recently read that OLD document and cannot find where it said that.). Prove me wrong, Patti. Show me the exact statement that backs up with what you guys are sharing with other deaf people.

  24. ASLElla
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 18:18:03

    Patti, awesome post and responses you made! I’m learning and being inspired once again by the soul force you have been sharing.
    Yes some of the comments you responded to aren’t pretty and quite heart wrenching but I’m learning so much from your responses.
    Biggest thank you and hugs.

  25. Dawn
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 18:27:23

    This just comes in! I’m delighted to share this. There were discussions happening at the Early Childhood ASL/English Bilingual Conference going on in Delaware. AFA issues were brought up there. Guess what? The professionals did not approve what was happening. They felt that AFA was alienating parents. They are now creating a task force to create better partnerships with parents. “Working with parents requires mutual respect and partnership.” ~Petra Horne-Marsh.

    That’s the RIGHT direction!

    I rest my case.

  26. Karen Mayes
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 19:19:35

    Oh wow. As you already know I have raised my voice in OBJECTION to AFA’s tactics, especially at the hospital and the oral deaf schools, because AFA has widened the gap between the Deaf community and the hearing parents. I am disappointed in your (Patti)’s heartless, sarcastic, defensive comments. AFA appears to forget one thing… HEARING PARENTS. My view is that AFA has been using them as “human shields”, hurting hearing parents and Deaf children more. PLUS, we are NOT in 20th century anymore. We are in 21st century now.

    As several people have been saying… refocus AFA’s energies… to the Congress, get the word “audism” formally recognized, and the changes would come more easy. Now I am hearing that the task force is being formed from Delaware’s Early Childhood ASL/English Bilingual Conference, to repair the DAMAGES that AFA has done, I feel more relieved… I’d rather listen to the professionals who know HOW TO WORK WITH parents.

    Disclaimer: I speak for myself… as I always have.

  27. Dianrez
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 21:51:27

    Some additional thoughts: DBC focuses on the children, while AFA focuses on the audism prevalent in the wider society. Perhaps the two organizations need work to avoid confusing the public and parents with their overlapping emphasis.

    True, we a designed, parent-supportive approach (Aimee mentioned honey and flies). DBC can do this in a friendly and attractive way, while AFA raises public awareness of Deaf people as capable of directing efforts for other d/Deaf people in education and other areas.

    There are also public misconceptions about d/Deaf adults, that affect our employment and education opportunities. We have an oralist past that still encourages people to think deafness is undesirable, curable, can be made unimportant or even invisible, and that something is wrong with people who don’t speak. That is where AFA could mount a well-coordinated public education effort to change peoples’ perceptions.

    Getting caught up in the heady rush of equality, rights and other confrontations of history overlooks one fact: we are a special needs group and there is no getting around our requirement for specialized schools, devices, captioning, affirmative employment, etc. that most people don’t usually get. It is one thing to demand equal rights that costs nothing extra for all people, and to demand equal rights that costs thousands of dollars in the hands of politicians. The approach has to be different and positive–to convince people that they NEED empowered Deaf people so they can make decisions the same as anybody else. Alternatively, AFA could work toward a totally barrier-free society where it matters not if anybody is hearing or deaf; equal access is built in everywhere.

  28. Penny
    Mar 17, 2012 @ 23:33:17


    I forgot all about Deaf schools. You are correct that we did not see parents or our community got angry when they saw demonstrations at Deaf schools. Good point.

    It is too bad that some people took out of context when AFA group took videos in St. Louis. I am prepared now that in the future when AFA protest at different places the Deaf community will look for flaws and create big issues out of it. I watched all videos and had only one concern which was about visiting ENT. I was concerned about violating HIPAA since I did not want AFA group to get into trouble. You already clarified about your trip there so I am fine with it. (My sister mentioned about HIPAA many times to me as she and her husband are CFO/Owner of Home care).

    I can see that some vloggers/bloggers are more worried about hearing parents and prefer to work with them. Hearing parents come first for them.They need to remember that we have programs at Deaf school and agencies where they work closely with hearing parents. Those places are right place for hearing parents and staff work together to see what works best for their child etc. Deaf community does not leave out hearing parents. I like what Dianrez wrote in her most recent comment. She said it all.

  29. Shel
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 00:12:19

    Candy, I am not here to even address the actions of AFA. However, I am going to address your disingenuous questioning of whether ICED has condemned oralism. You know very well that it has. ICED New Era document IS ON THE INTERNET. Take a look!

    I took the liberty of bringing the link here. I hope everyone is able to click on the link.

    Here is the ICED New Era document in PDF format. Click on “The ICED 2010 New Era Document” link which will lead you to the PDF format of the document.

    You asked to see where ICED has condemned oralism. Sigh.
    Statement of Principle: (I am not typing the whole thing… just the relevant parts. )

    The resolutions of the 1880 ICED Congress in Milan

    “In 1880, an international congress was held in Milan to discuss education of the Deaf. At that time, the members passed several resolutions that affected the education and the lives of Deaf citizens around the world. The resolutions:

    • Removed the use of sign languages from educational programs for the Deaf around the world;

    • Contributed detrimentally to the lives of Deaf citizens around the world;

    • Led to the exclusion of Deaf citizens in educational policy and planning in most jurisdictions of the world;

    • Prevented Deaf citizens from participation in governmental planning, decision-making, and funding in areas of employment training, retraining and other aspects of career planning;

    • Hindered the abilities of Deaf citizens to succeed in various careers and have prevented many of them from following their own aspirations; and

    • Prevented the opportunity for many Deaf citizens to fully demonstrate their cultural and artistic contributions to the diversity of each Nation.

    Therefore we:

    • Reject all resolutions passed at the ICED Milan Congress in 1880 that denied the inclusion of sign languages in educational programs for Deaf students.

    • Acknowledge and sincerely regret the detrimental effects of the Milan conference; and

    • Call upon all Nations of the world to remember history and ensure that educational programs accept and respect all languages and all forms of communication.

    (I know for a fact that the Deaf writers intended for forms of communication to mean writing, typing, and not what certain organizations took it to mean…and cut out the part of “remember history… respect all languages and” from their quotations.)

    If the above is NOT clear condemnation of oralism ONLY, I don’t know what is! If oralism wasn’t so bad, why was ICED drafted that condemning (Yes CONDEMNING is the same as REJECTING) the EXCLUSION of all sign language from educational programs for the Deaf?

    Now, YOUR TURN, Candy.

    Please show us in that ICED document and elsewhere:

    a) where has the EXCLUSION of sign languages of the world benefitted Deaf children?

    b) where were Deaf citizens allowed EQUAL access to the decision making processes in different areas (including those that affect Deaf children)?

    c) where does the Babbidge report say that oralism has benefitted Deaf children?

    NOW, the real questions lie now:

    Why are there STILL educational programs running that EXCLUDE ASL in North America (USA and Canada)?

    Why are there NO Deaf politicians (at any level of American gov’t) to this day?

    In EHDI, NONE of us can say that the Deaf have equal access to the decision making processes in EHDI… (4 Deaf to 19 Hearing is NOT equal, no matter how one may slice it)

    THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why we say audism exists, no matter how some of you rail against the word: audism.

    As for audism being recognized as a word…

    We already have organizations in Canada that have developed position papers recognizing the existence of audism. We also have organizations in Canada with anti-audism policies! Just check out Canadian Hearing Society. Oh and by the way, we have a former Deaf Member of Provincial Parliament in Ontario who served for a number of years in government. His name is Gary Malkowski.

    Have a good evening.

  30. Candy
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 01:40:43


    I see Patti can’t speak for herself, I asked her, not you.

    There is NO condemnation of oralism in the 2010 ICED resolution. You failed to show me the exact statement that condemns it. Respecting all language and all forms of communication does not exclude any methods that deaf/hh may use as a language or a form of communication.

    Condemning the exclusion of all sign language from educational programs for the deaf does not mean they condemn oralism. You choose to interpret it that way. Trust me that is not what it meant, it simply meant it condemned ICED’s exclusion of sign language, nothing more.

    You have not shown me where the babbidge report says oralism is a complete failure and since you have not, I will wait to show you where it states that oralism has benefit deaf children when you show me where it said it is a failure. I have the full document in front of me. Mind you, the Babbidge report also says that manualism benefits deaf children too. Besides, the Babbidge report should not be used to make a point because it is OLD and I only brought it up because AFA did. Otherwise, I would not have ever brought it up to make my point, it’s OLD. Irrelevant to use that document, really.

    Now, in America we have the freedom to choose, We have the freedom to set up schools that has it’s own specialized mission. The key word is accept and respect all language and all forms of communication. You want to add, remember history, that’s fine. It does not make the “accept and respect all language and all forms of communication” any more powerful. Still means the same.

    I don’t know how it is in Canada, but in America we have the freedom to choose. That is why we have certain schools that do not employ such philosophy and that is okay as long as THEY accept and respect all language and all forms of communication. AFA/DBC/DHF are all trashing CI. I don’t see other oral organization trashing sign language. Having an opinion that such approach is better is not trashing,

    I’m not for excluding anything, I’m for including everything. To have all approach available for parents to research and decide. Everything should be on the table and that is what ICED 2010 did. Include all.

  31. Candy
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 01:44:26

    I forgot to add AVT when i mentioned trashing CI., it should be CI and AVT (or LSL).

  32. deafcdn
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 02:39:10

    Patti WILL speak for herself when she has the chance to do so. She does not need me to speak for her. I, however, chose to respond to your comment to make sure misconceptions are thrown out, laid to rest, and/or stomped upon.

    I see you refuse to see what is right in front of your eyes. The whole ICED document condemns (rejects) oralism- ONLY approach. You choose to not interpret it as such because you refuse to recognize that the exclusion of all sign language from educational programs for the deaf leaves… what? ORALISM…only. It is only logical to see that oralism is what the Milan 1880 “educators” chose to go for when they decided to do away with sign language (be it FSL, ASL, BSL, etc).

    It is logical to see that the results of the Oralism-ONLY approach have been, and that is what led to the ICED Vancouver New Era document which states it REJECTS the Milan 1880 resolutions which led to what…? ORALISM ONLY.

    I find it interesting that you REFUSE to show me what I asked for. Hmmm… Why are you so insistent that we SHOW YOU, when you WON’T SHOW us what I (this time) asked you to show us? Hmmm. Quite revealing, isn’t it?

    It is wonderful that you have the full document in front of you now. Now, please show the exact quote that says that oralism BENEFITS Deaf children. I had the ICED 2010 Document right in front of me, so that is how I was able to quote it.

    I did my part. YOU do your part. But it is your choice to do so, or not.

    “Freedom to choose”. HMMM. That is exactly what has been happening in America. Choose THIS or THAT. ONE OR THE OTHER…

    ORALISM (AVT/CI) minus ASL. (Except for a few hearing parents of Deaf children, MANY parents are still being told they have to choose this or that, and if they choose CI and AVT they forfeit ASL. )

    As for your not seeing oral organizations not trashing ASL, you’re being disingenuous, AGAIN.

    Let me refresh your memory, and suggest that you do your homework…

    We have websites in North America that REFUSE to mention ASL anywhere in its website.

    I can name one for sure, and there are others (which I won’t mention just yet, and allow others to mention if they like)

    We have CHHA-NL who mentions NOTHING about ASL. (when an organization that is purported to support access for Deaf children omits mention of ASL, that is dissing ASL.) THAT organization was in bed with the Newfoundland government, and actively encouraged the gov’t in closing Newfoundland School for the Deaf. Reason? CI will help Deaf children in mainstreaming schools, and a Newfoundland Doctor said CI will lead to the eradication of deafness, and therefore there is no reason for ASL. If you still call that NOT trashing ASL by an organization, a government or doctors, then it would be easy for folks to say that you’re in SERIOUS denial of facts.

    We have organizations that STEER parents towards mainstreaming. We also have organizations working hard to get pro-oralism bills such as AB-2072 (which didn’t pass), and HB 1367 which HEAR INDIANA worked so hard to get passed.

    HEAR INDIANA has a reputation of not being ASL-friendly. Just go back and read the stories about that organization and its bad relationship with ISD. I don’t have to tell you about that.

    We have organizations that pay lip service to ASL such as AGBell, the very same organization that raised a stink about ASL in one of the commercials during Super Bowl game a few years ago.

    Given the above information…

    Do you still stand by your statement: “I don’t see other oral organization trashing sign language”?

    “Having an opinion that such approach is better is not trashing,” That’s not what you said about people who have the opinion that ASL is better than oralism. In fact, you attack them. History speaks for itself.

    “Everything should be on the table…”

    Yet, everything IS NOT on the table, as is evident in so many stories that abound even today, and at EHDI… everything IS STILL NOT on the table. Many abstracts that had ASL and bilingualism in them got turned down.

    That is dissing ASL, bilingualism AND the attempt to ensure that parents have ALL information…with NOTHING held back, and with NO OBFUSCATIONS.

    *SMH* Denials and deflections… oh my!

    I believe I have had my say. Good night.

  33. handeyes
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 04:57:45

    here is a link re: a petition to get Iowa Board of Regents to reconsider their plans to appt the supt of programs for the Blind (the school now has no students) to serve as the supt of the Iowa School for the Deaf – the man doesnt know ASL nor Deaf culture so the petition is asking the board of regents to reconsider that planned appointment

    its late so i really cant do ya all justice with in-depth replies but some quick thoughts.

    Candy – re: your EXPLAINING and EXPLAINING and EXPLAINING moog’s quote – wow.

    it is amazing how folks keep saying we misunderstand things – we havent misunderstood nothing but in looking over ur comments here i got to think about how Ms Moog herself at least recognized that there is such a thing as American Sign Language where u, candy, instead have spent time trying to say ASL was not a language and just a bad form of English and implied and hinted that ASL was just a plot and a ploy by Dr. Stokoe at least Moog is more knowledgeable but her prejudice still bothers me.

    Ella – soul force ROCKS!

    Dawn – its great to learn that AFA’s activism inspired the folks in Delware to get busy doing good. That’s great to know. And here i am being sincere. Had not a few folks stood out front of those schools or visited that ENT waiting room and had not some folks over REACTED to it – well the folks in Delware would probably go the same ole same ole route.

    Karen – please specifically show me where anything i have written here is “heartless, sarcastic, defensive comments.”

    i know i am being firm and im offering facts – folks protest in front of schools all the time and folks visit hospital waiting rooms all the time. Its the truth.

    So pls do quote me re: the HEARTLESS especially because if we compare how you and others have addressed me here and how i have been addressing folks – I dont think those three adjectives apply to me.

    Diane – DBC didnt really participate in any of the AFA EHDI events except for attending the Deaf club presentation and saying a few words and attending the march and bringing a bunch of banners. The rest of the time they pretty much were working inside of the EHDI conference. One DBC rep got manhandled a bit by Dr White and this Deaf man’s Deaf wife and their Deaf grandchild were forced out into the cold – they couldnt even walk around Union Station. so honey only goes so far.

    re: a rush for equality – well actually the ground swell has been building for about 130 years smile. its mighty slow me think. furthermore the wisdom in telling folks to wait or be patient or to beg for a little more – really has never panned out for any disenfranchised group. the government does regulate specialized funding for various groups – women, African-American, etc to compensate for historical injustices and to re-mediate inequalities – Deaf folks dont have to be locked into being ‘special’ as in “needy” to get what they are entitled to.

    also Oralism is BACK and it is still using some of its old methods – rapping of hands with rulers, isolation, grabbing of hands that sign – still happening. So why arent we telling them to use honey to get the kids and young adults to do as they wish instead of using excessive and extreme measures to deny them the right to sign?

    re: universal design – i am all for it and guess what is is materializing more and more now.

    Penny – thank u for taking the time to view the videos and judge things for yourself and to inquire and get clarification etc. re: Hearing parents – all the parents are IMPORTANT – Deaf, Partially Deaf, Hearing, etc. Many Hearing parents have thanked us and some have even told us we need to do more – ha. smile. I’m really grateful that folks care so much and are starting to put their actions behind their words. Change is in the air.

    Shel – thank you thank you thank you – yep that there ICED 2010 is mighty fine in acknowledging that Oralism is wrong cuz it excludes sign language and that is not cool

    Candy – i aint gonna even bother with ur “prove it” because in the past when i have brought you truths and knowledge and facts you have pulled out the “well that is debatable” card

    4 international documents have said Deaf children should have a natural sign language and understanding of Deaf culture as part of their education so….

    oh also – whenever someone from the general public learns that there are programs out there that actively DENY a Deaf child the right to sign language they go WTF – yep real loud they do. they know it is bonky and so do you. why you go to such incredible length to defend it, i have no idea but i got a hunch.

    and now im gonna return my gaze to EHDI

    thank u all for this chat – made me realize how much more activism we need to do cuz it is definitely waking folks up and putting the truth on the table. Making Deaf children work for their words all their waking hours is not cool



  34. Candy
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 06:31:46

    ahh, oralism ONLY. But, that is not what AFA said to the folks at GSLAD, on the screen it said ICED condemned oralism. Period. If it said that ICED 2010 condemned the oralism only approach, I wouldn’t even challenge them. Perhaps AFA need to revise what they shared with the folks at GSLAD. When they said condemning oralism, it’s as if they wanted deaf folks to get the information that ICED currently condemns Oralism, which is far from the truth.

    I asked Patti to show me where the Babbidge report said that oralism is a failure since they have also shared with the folks at GSLAD – again another item I saw as erroneous information. Patti and neither you were able to point to the statement that says that. I asked first. 😉 I was the one that challenged Patti to show me where 2010 ICED said that it condemned oralism and where in the Babbidge report that says oralism is a failure. Like I said, I asked first.

    This is exactly was written on the overhead or screen at GSLAD:

    Under “Victories Making an Impact”

    “2010 International Congress on Education of the Deaf, Vancouver, BC: apologizing and condemning Oralism”


    “the Babbridge (sic) Report – dismal failure of Oralism”

    I’d be happy to share the actual document, but first, I’d like to know what exact statement from the Babbidge Report that made AFA put out that erroneous information.

    Clearly Patti isn’t going to answer. I think that speaks for itself or maybe she is tired…. you’d think if she asked for questions, she’d answer? *shrug* So much for Q & A.

    I think I’m done here. My suggestion to you Shel, look online, you’ll find the ORIGINAL Babbidge report in PDF. Read it and I’m sure you’ll come to the same conclusion I’ve seen at least two scholars have, as I did.

  35. Penny
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 10:43:42


    You asked good questions. I found Babbidge report in PDF. I read most of it this evening. I must admit that the report is old and unreliable. I found that the report encouraged educators to use oral methods and if it does not work for some individuals (students) then ASL be used.

    It looked like that the Committees and AGB agreed on same page. They emphasized on oral method as first option. I believe that the Committees on board were hearing and did not use ASL or have any formal in Deaf Education background. We definitely need update report on Deaf Education. I know without doubt that Committees or Researchers will find many Deaf children with CI or without in public schools are being neglect and performed poorly in education.

    Now regarding “dismal failure of oralism” which Patti mentioned in one of her vlogs (I did not watch her presentation at GSLAD). I found some information from the Babbidge report which applied to “failure of oralism”. Let me quote some information from the report—point by point.

    1. There will continue to be failures in the oral method, and facilities for teaching in the language of signs should therefore be retained.

    2. Those who favor the oral method also point out that manual communication is more easily acquired, that a child who is taught manually is less likely to put forth the extra effort required to achieve speech and speech reading. (less likely…all of us know it is not true)

    3. Technological advances (hearing aids) have undoubtedly improved the utilization of residual haring by deaf persons; it is likely that most of them still use their vision for communication (ASL) and for the acquisition of information.

    Penny’s comment: I found statements that showed support for oralism but at the same time they said ASL is easier to communicate with others and for learning too.

    4. Advocates of the purely oral method of instruction concede that speech and speech reading, aided by auditory training to take advantage of even small residual hearing, may be more difficult and take longer to learn than manual methods.

    Penny comment: It explicitly showed that Advocators knew that ASL is easier for Deaf children to use for communication and learning.

    5. Learning to speak and to read speech on lips (lip-reading) and the expressions of others is a minor miracle BUT a miracle that is happening every day in hundreds of classrooms for the Deaf.

    Penny comment: ” a miracle that is happening every day in hundreds of classrooms?”
    I know the information is not accurate. The Committees said it takes a minor miracle then they said a miracle…contradictory here.

    My interpretation from the Babbidge report is that the Committees support oral methods and they suggested that oral methods should be considered as first option but if individuals (students) failed to use oral methods then ASL be employed.

    Many of us agreed that Deaf children should use ASL for communication and learning and if child shows that she has potentials to use other communication tools then we should encourage her to use them—only if she wants it.

  36. handeyes
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 12:43:39

    candy –

    how we UNDERSTAND things depends on our center. it is clear that your and my center are completely different

    Oralism is oral / aural ONLY and that is not cool – if u want to paint it to mean they are just saying that there should be “options” for the oral failure to have – well WOW

    i think ull hit a hard time twisting the other international documents into your biased framework but im sure you will try

    the point is we know ORALISM fails folks. even those who “succeed” under its reign usually end up learning ASL and wishing they had ASL as a pup

    we know that learning ASL does not prohibit one’s speech development thus there is no just justification for an Oral / aural only systems that are prohibitive and extreme in nature.

    i am always disheartened when i see u chase after the wee-est little thing to pull out and make a stink out of when you KNOW the truth

    oral / aural only is repressive in practice – Deaf children who can speak and hear are punished and chastised and isolated for using signs or gestures still in the United States of America. Freedom of speech applies to the hands too ya know and they shouldnt be denied to do what comes naturally during lunch or what Hearing students are getting academic credit for studying all over AMERICA

    this is the issue – u can now try to make a stink over 2 sentences while protecting a defending Moog’s statement at great length and trying to discredit ASL as a language. You should know that EVERYONE can see u.

    This site gets hundreds of hits and while some folks will take things at surface value and say “good point so and so made” MOST folks go – wow that is so twisted – to constantly be defending oppression and discrediting social justice. this is what u r doing candy.

    ’tis a pity because in the end all of this constant word war by you without any ground activism in favor of your cause Oral / Aural ONLY education or any cause you choose ends up Signifying nothing

    much peace


  37. handeyes
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 12:55:48

    Penny –

    thank u for sharing what u r gathering from the document and your point of view re: the need for a new Congressional review of Deaf education

    yes indeed it is long over due

    Babbridge was in the1960s and COED (Commission on the Education of the Deaf) was in the 1980s so we r overdue for a new one

    AFA did ask Musgrove of the US DoE when another one would be forth coming and the DoE said not any time soon due to budget etc

    folks do realize there are candidates running to do away with the dept of ed and the US education across the nation for Hearing students is in an abysmal state (see Waiting for Superman or how many students cant even read a clock – they need digital numbers not hands)

    in terms of Deaf education – it has been plagued by folks determining what is BEST for Deaf children when they themselves are not Deaf nor do they know ASL generally so… we been in a pickle for a mightly long time

    it is interesting to know that historically disenfranhised folks have been oppressed via education because this is the surest way to keep a people down

    It was forbidden to teach an African-American slave to read and write, women were denied schooling then later college, and then later the right to speak in public functions etc

    SYSTEMS know that with KNOWLEDGE (Language and Literacy) comes POWER and they no want to share the power.

    Deaf education SYSTEM is set up to keep the Deaf child DEPENDENT on the healers, the specialists, and the teachers

    The real value of true education is empowerment and self-governance

    they are TERRIFIED that Deaf folks will be educated bilingually because they know with it will come emancipation and they do not want that

    there are only a handful of bilingual Deaf schools in this country – the rest are all sim-com city or oral / aural only yet no one is ever challenging them. interesting eh?

    they do not want Deaf children to have mastery of ASL and English early because when they get that they start to say well what about my right to an equal job and what about my right to hold positions in the government and what about my right to be on TV with my flashy and beautiful ASL – so they suppress CONSTANTLY and ENDLESSLY but…
    ASL always rises. It always rises naturally not via huge amounts of money from AG Bell Association, Obertokker, the Tracey family, the Moog Family or any other Oral ONLY dynasty and now the govt via the EHDI mechanisms – despite all this POWER PLAYING PUSH – ASL still rises and this is what they are worried about

    and this is why Candy grabs at straws and why Dr. White obstructed free speech and assembly

    we STAND



  38. Dianrez
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 16:25:30

    Again we are all off on tangents, quibbling, quoting, cutting and pasting, arguing about different sides of the same coins. Even getting personal. Argh. Shaddup, dear folks.

    It’s orientations we need to address…hearing prejudices and assumptions about us d/Deaf people. The assumption that to get a CI to work one must restrict sign language. The assumption that parents must make a choice between CI/AVT and bilingual education (worded to sound like a ghettoization scenario.) The clear undercurrent that people want to protect their assumptions, their livelihoods, their reputations, their cultures.

    To defend oralism (defined as pure or oral-ONLY) fearing that it is a dying option is false and a waste of energy. Realistically, one must look at it as a very limited part of a whole.

    People who say one must make a choice are no better than the quacks who make a living pushing assumptions such as–because cod liver oil is distasteful, it must be healthy. Because most people are hearing/voicing, it must be optimal. They need a paradigm shift with a good kick in the tuchis.

    What we must say to parents is this: make an informed decision on medical approaches IF you must use it. At the same time, DEMAND the global approach in infant learning: –all possible communication avenues from the beginning.

    By five years old the child will be able to say in several different ways that he loves his parents, the names and occupations of his family members, the differences between right and wrong, his family customs, what they did last weekend, where he lives, how to reach his people, where he goes to school, etc. By that time his strengths and weaknesses will be clearer and he will have a well-rounded bilingual vocabulary. It will be obvious then which which language skills to emphasize, and which to bolster.

    THEN make decisions for the next few years and reconsider them as often as necessary.

    Oralism? Babbidge report? Medical approach being appropriate for “certain” people? Defending the right to make a “choice”, protecting HOH rights? Argh. Let’s not get waylaid by false assumptions that demand restrictions or narrow choices. The deaf/HOH child deserves the same as any other child–the world of possibilities.

  39. Jeffrey A. Roberts (@DeafJeff)
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 17:27:29

    Patti and CREW

    I cannot but smile from ear to ear knowing that we have a Collective HEART. We be jumpin’ at da Sun!

    Naysayers: *snickers*chuckles*giggles*

    Lighten up y’all!
    Don’t stain yer britches.


  40. Penny
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 21:25:17

    Patti- I agree! 🙂

    Dianez- I am glad that Candy brought up questions about Babbridge report because I never heard about this report before. I spent four hours from 1:00-4:00 AM to find the report online and read most of it. After reading the report I want this report go to disposal. I will not use this report for presentation, arguement or discussion anywhere. The report is no good. This report is biased, old and provided inaccurate information.

    Candy and I do not agree on many things but I realize that we need her sometime to help us to better prepare when we go out and protest or give presentation. Her questions can help us to present valid agruement along with facts, accurate and determination. I have thought about many things in the past few months and I am not going to tell Candy to shut up if she asks good questions. If she asks good questions and we give her good answers and if she does not agree who knows what then that is fine as Candy and we can leave it alone with respect.

  41. Dianrez
    Mar 18, 2012 @ 22:49:48

    Penny, good point about using opposing people for ideas on how to plan counter-arguments. However, the sad truth is that none of the myriad research reports or position papers can irrefutably be used to end all arguments. Each one has its counter. Thus people will be waving papers at each other and arguing from 1880 to now only to end up with aching muscles and hoarser voices.

    These papers are being used to manipulate people, influence legislation, for self-advancement and to cut budgets. Behind them is the bigger problem: attitudes, assumptions, opinions and the desire to prove one is right rather than a desire to see deaf kids get every available resource. So we need to focus on the people who drive the programs and the legislation. Get them out of their mind-ruts, knock them off their preconceptions.

    AFA has succeeded somewhat: EDHI and NCHAM have cracked a bit to consider more Deaf involvement and to recognize the value of a Deaf cultural model. Instead of arguing among ourselves to the point of insanity, we should be charting ways to change the public mindset. Finding fresh approaches such as considering Deaf people part of the cultural mosiac of the world and according them equal diplomatic weight as ambassadors. Seeing the d/Deaf communities as a variegated quilt with characteristics unique to each part. Teaching the Deaf Gain concept that the characteristics of deaf people have their own value and their places in the world. Even find a way to fit in those who prefer to be invisible and undetectable in the hearing community as part of the total picture. Just refocus, not quibbling, please, if only to avoid going bonkers. There are more creative ways to spend our energies.

  42. Penny
    Mar 19, 2012 @ 08:04:52


    I concur. I have seen like this many times when I took courses at college, reading blogs, and watching vlogs. I still believe that we need to allow others ask questions or challenge us with good questions regardless we know their typical patterns. When we give reasons and answers and if they continue not to agree and wants to continue to debate that get us to nowhere then we can end discussion. Lately, I have ignored some questions because they raised those questions before.

    When I returned school I had top notch professors and they always encouraged me to ask questions and they gave answers with reinforcement and treated me equal. I had blast with my professors and I still miss them dearly today. True bizz. I learned from them and want to do same thing with other people who want to ask questions.

    I am aware that it is not healthy if we continue to debate without solution or understanding. As for the person who raised questions about Babbridge report…it is a new subject for me and many others as well. I was hoping that I would see some answers but I saw none. I decided to do my homework and learned new information from and about the report

    I always believe that any kind of protest never came in vain. I believe they have made some breakthroughs. If our protest saved one child then that is a big achievement for us. There is no measurement and I think that AFA had done a wonderful job. I know that AFA or other organizations can’t please everyone unless 90% of us are not happy with the outcome. To go out and protest is a new thing for our community and I think we have done a great job although I have not participated in one yet. I hope one day I will join with them.

    Thanks for the dialogue. I look forward to discussing with you next time—on new topic. 

  43. Candy
    Mar 19, 2012 @ 11:40:49


    I want to say, thank you for taking the time to search for, find, and read the Babbidge report. I do not think anyone is using the report to back up their philosophy except for AFA, what I have seen so far. It’s just an old document that no one follows anymore.

    Oralism was never something that is guaranteed, back then.

    Many of us knew that.

    Remember, back then, there were no digital hearing aids nor were there any cochlear implants. Imagine what the Babbidge report would be like if technology was advanced in the 60’s?

    I think it is safe to say that using that document to prove a point that oralism is a failure is foolish. I think the best bet for success is to have parents be very dedicated and involved with their child’s education regardless of the approach. Ask any educators, they’ll tell ya that.

  44. Penny
    Mar 19, 2012 @ 22:50:30


    Your welcome. US Dept needs to get research committees—Professional Deaf researchers/professors and people who support CI/AVT together as one team (strictly 100% unbiased) to visit public schools, mainstreamed classes and Deaf schools to collect data on Deaf Education. I have no doubt whatsoever that many Deaf children in public schools and mainstreamed are neglected, abused, and delayed in education.

    I am not involved in school education but I have two friends who work in public schools. One is in the east coast and one is in the west coast. They shared countless stories about many CI kids delayed in language and education. Heart wrenching stories. Someone needs to act fast and do this research so we can do something and save Deaf children. I agree with you that parents need to be dedicated and involved with their child’s education. No questions ask. BUT we need to be realistic that many hearing parents are not dedicated or involved in their Deaf child’s education. We need to expose kids with ASL so they can develop language as early as possible. You use ASL and I don’t understand why you don’t support this approach.

    It looks like you and I agree that we need update report. We need to applaud Patti for making efforts to raise concerns to US Dept about this problem. She tried and now I hope Gallaudet, NAD, or somebody will push US Dept that we need to update report ASAP. We are losing Deaf children every day. I am not in fantasy world or I say this because I use ASL. I have heard heart wrenching stories from two teachers. Actually one is a teacher and one is a teacher aide. They said they don’t know how to leave their job because they care so much for those little children with CI and little hands who are neglected and delayed in education. I know my friends and they don’t make up stories.

  45. handeyes
    Mar 20, 2012 @ 02:50:22

    Penny – i hope u will be able to participate in an AFA event in the future also

    i thank u all for sharing and discussing this and yes we have gone way off topic from the blog entry

    i think dianrez shaddup was largely re: “getting personal” and i would agree that folks coming here to try to make themselves big by trying to lash out at me for something that is a principled and important part of our constitutional rights (free speech and assemble of which i wasnt even present for boo but of which they were trying to bully me into disavowing AFA’s actions) seems to be justified. I myself had hoped they would think better of doing such not so much because it hurt or offended me but rather because it makes them look very bad.

    Candy is now saying that AFA shouldnt mention the Babbidge report because its old – well the PP slide was about Victories in our collective experience timeline and hence it was mentioning that bit of history – it was the first time a government document documented the shortcomings of Oralism and it ALLOWED for sign language to return to the classrooms in which the SYSTEMS immediately pulled a coup and made signed SYSTEMS to block ASL from returning the classroom

    The babbidge report is not perfect but for its time it was formative – coupled with Stokoe et al documenting American Sign Language (this is where Candy winces because she may still be thinking that Stokoe was an evil sorcerer who brainwashed a whole college and the Modern Language Association and many more into thinking that ASL was a real language)

    we saw a bit of positive progress at the beginning of 1970s only to be hit by the mainstreaming of all handicapped children act (Now IDEA) and a can of worms of invented signed systems to keep spoken English as the king of the classroom – i guess to ensure they could be Americans and part of American culture – no idea but i suspect it really wasnt for humane or just reasons because the results have been HORRIBLE – see COED – another govt report that said – not cool, Deaf education is not cool

    and now we see the renewed raise of oral / aural only because they say CI and high end digital hearing aids make it oooooooo so easy but alas – the folks raised under it reign of error still want the hand talk – go figure

    babbidge report and ICED 2010 are important parts of our history – knowing our history is a big part of understanding our present so we can determine our future.

    re: a new report from the DoE it is needed

    there is the GOA of may 2011 report
    31 pages

    re: questions i have no problem with them – its when folks ask them and you answer and then they say “well that is debatable” or when the questions are thrown in there to totally hijack the conversation away from the topic – which is folks OVER reacting about social justice peaceful activism and exercising first and fourteen amendment rights that i say – nah i aint gonna play that game no more

    as for the present – the 2nd wave is here folks – wake the bleep up

    and penny – i see u. u r awake and i thank u



  46. Penny
    Mar 20, 2012 @ 05:52:00


    You are correct that we went way off topic from your blog. Oops! I did not realize it. I wanted to hear your answer re; Candy’s questions about Babbridge report. I know some bloggers like you prefer to stay on topic and I will make sure to do that next time.

    Candy, if you want to continue to have discussion then please feel free to e-mail me.

    Thanks for clarification about Dianez’s comment when she said “shaddup”. I thought she referred to Candy’s question about the report because she replied after her comment. I forgot about others’ comments to you. Ooops.

    I see what you mean about the report but I still don’t look it at that way. I don’t want to get there because you and I have already explained our views about the report. But you do make some good points though.

    I understand what you mean when others say it is debatable and really I totally forgot about your blog and focus on discussion above but when I went back and read it again…yep we are way off the topic. My apologies.

    One last thing here…what do you mean that you see me that I am awake now?

  47. handeyes
    Mar 20, 2012 @ 13:56:29

    penny – thanks for ur comment

    going off topic aint usually a problem – its only when its used to distract and detract that i say ya basta to the instigator of such practiced patterns. not u the innocent bystander but the folks who use that tactic regularly when they see they r busted they wiggle out of the pinch to toss other crap at us and send us off track.

    re: I see u – i guess its a bit of an Ubuntu thing. Ubuntu is an African philosophy that at times is summed up to be “i see u” which is a greeting some folks use when their paths cross but it signifies a way of life. one im aiming for but not there yet. maybe this link will help clarify a bit more

    but what i meant when i typed those words “i see u” is that i understand and i am connected to what u are seeing and sharing and caring about.

    re: u are awake – pls note i didnt type NOW. i think u’ve always been awake. with all of us – our awakened state ebbs and flows. sometimes im more awake than other times

    so my comment about u being awake was to mean that i see ur sincerity in asking questions and questing for answers and your commitment to peaceful activism. its a good thing and i value it.

    thank u for asking for clarification and for all u are and all u do



  48. handeyes
    Mar 20, 2012 @ 14:45:58

    Jeffrey –

    my apologies – ur comment was stuck in pending – i assume due to ya having been a stranger for so long that PotE needed a re-introduction so its approved now and up where at when it came in

    re: * insert smary word * si

    re: lighten up – well it seems to me some folks got a need to be right that is bigger than the state of Texas (no offense Texas) – would much rather they have a need to DO RIGHT but everybody moving at their own pace and running in circles for some is still motion

    re: the crew – we all good and happy

    re: jumping at da sun – yes we be doin’

    re: positive V – wouldnt have it any other way

    peace, love, hope & faith and all dat other groovy stuff,

    oh – and thanks for the comment

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