My reply to MKM “move on” command

Heye all:

(note: this summary paragraph has been revised 6/22/2011 based on the clarifications Miss Kat’s Mom provided in the comment section below)

In the previous People of the Eye blog entry replying to Mishka Zena’s valid question re: AG Bell Association trying to destroy Deaf culture – Miss Kat’s Mom (MKM) a blogger and commenter showed up and left a comment.  MKM has a young Deaf daughter with bilaterial implants.  Her daughter, Kat, has done the hopscotch dance of getting routed through various programs and technologies to try to return her to her hearing state of being (kat has progressive Deaf gain that fluctuates).  Kat was in a bilingual-bicultural program in Utah and then in an oral / aural program, she did John Spencer Tracey clinic two summers ago and then in CID summer oral / aural only program (the nearly $3,000 tuition was reduced to $200 via a scholarship).  MKM does alot of blogging promoting CIs and oral / aural programs.  the family relocated from Utah to the east for an exclusively Oral/ Aural ONLY school.

that is just a summary so folks have some context re: MKM.  if i have any errors in the summary – pls let me know.

below is MKM comment in the previous People of the Eye thread and my reply.  (another comment from MKM came in while i was typing my reply but u can read that over in that thread if u so desire – see link above)

Me main point?  We are on the move and they no likey!   See u in DC in July folks.  If you cant make it due to timing, distance, etc – organize something locally or just share your own experiences with Oralism – YOU and YOUR experiences are VALID folks.  VERY valid.  

It is mighty hard to move on when they won’t allow u to know where you have been or where u are standing.  Got FEET folks – let’s move ’em on out!

———————-

Posted by Miss Kat’s mom on June 19, 2011 

The problem with this rant is that it is 99% focused on the past, rather than the future. For G-D sakes, MOVE ON! Parents don’t want to hear about what happened in1880 in Europe. WHat does that have to do with THEIR child born in 2011?

Second, the biggest myth that you are perpetuating is that the majority of people with a hearing loss use ASL. The fact simply do not bear that out. There are 32,000,000 people in the US with hearing loss, and between 300-500,000 ASL users (and that includes CODAs). The fact is, ASL users are a very small minority and there simply aren’t millions of dissatified oral adults “flocking” to ASL and the Deaf community.
————————–

Posted by patti on June 20, 2011 at 12:26 pm

MKM – you have incorrect info in your comment
1. 99% of this post is not about the past. a great deal of it is about current times and as MZ noted if we do not study history we are doomed to repeat it

WE DO NOT WANT A REPEAT OF reign of ORALISM (oral / aural ONLYism) – it failed then and it will fail again

2. Many parents DO want to understand the historical context and the TRUTH of what Deaf folks have been experiencing in CURRENT times as a result of Oralism
(note that in my post i did NOT focus on Milan 1880 at all – nice spinning there MKM)

3. No where did i say that the majority of folks with a hearing loss use ASL

my goodness MKM – what are u playing at?

smoke and mirrors skills – u have not. – we have our reading glasses on, our eyes and our hearts open

now re: “MOVE ON” – MKM we have every right to be outraged by that command of yours. i myself am not outraged because it saddens me more than outrages me and i also know its just a deflection technique and i am hopefully u dont sincerely mean to be telling Deaf folks not to care about their past, present or future even though it sounds like that is what u r saying.

i have seen MANY people say MOVE ON to Jewish people re: the Shoah – they say the Holocaust never happened or it never happened at the extent that folks try to say or they say other groups were persecuted and targeted too or…. and when folks bring out all the truths – the testimonies, the photos, the footage, the shoes, the tattoos, the gas chambers, etc etc then they resort to saying:

“Well, it happened a long time ago and Jewish people need to MOVE ON.”

Oh my heavens – that hurts me so much. I have had folks say this to my face and I am not Jewish – i am committed to sharing the true stories of survivors and those who perished (most especially of Deaf people because their stories are often lost or overlooked) and sometimes after i have shared – i will come face to face with someone who says – the Holocaust was a long time ago. Jewish people need to move on. The war ended 66 Years ago is considered a long time ago??????

not really

130 years ago is a long time ago?????

not really

the arrogance of humans on this planet that we measure things by our own life-time solely and not on the whole continuum of life on this planet

66 years, 130 years, 200 years – this is RECENT history in the grand scope of things

and the fact that these atrocities and injustices happened in modern / recent times is appalling and flabbergasting and that u, MKM, would suggest that we do not care about the fact that children were put into little black isolation rooms in their SCHOOLS, that children are CURRENTLY being isolated if they sign during lunch, that children sometime get shocks from their cochlear implants is….

SHOCKING

we are talking about TRUE history

it is OURstory

and one is too many – and it is more than just one MKM

and we will not be denied the right to sing it

we will not be denied the right to sign

the two are interconnected and i see and i understand why u r trying to deny us this right just as the little girl in the 2nd video at kat’s school kept trying to deny the little boy in red from gesturing and signing during the concert

we will not be DENIED MKM

so yep we are not a majority but there are some folks who want to sign and they should have the right to (see little boy in red for a CURRENT example) and there are some folks who dont know they want it because they have never been afforded the opportunity and because the stigma associated with it may make them shun it

like when Jay Wyant, former board president of AG Bell Association, signed a few signs with Ruthie Jordan on a video and a member of AG Bell associate wrote in to criticize him for using signing.

Yep Mr Wyant too got his hands slapped for showing a wee few signs – an adult Deaf man with cochlear implants and the president of an association for Deaf And Hard of Hearing people was being criticized and chastising simply for demonstrating his wee knowledge of another language

what is up with that MKM?

how can we MOVE ON from that if u r all so busy denying that language bigotry – linguicism, phonocentrism, audism, and paternalism still exist TODAY?

u are welcome here at People of the Eye. just know it is a place of truths – not myth making or attacking or wagging the dog or the finger at us as if we are children of a lesser god – cuz we aint

i am being firm with love here cuz time is a wasting and breaking through some folks DENIAL requires being forthright and “speaking their language.”

MKM – we are moving on and we are on the move and that is REALLY what is upsetting you.

I gotcha (meaning i understand u) and i love u and Kat

waking up is hard to do.

ya basta – folks

peace,

Patti

——————–

NOTE: – i really do care for Miss Kat’s Mom so no attacking her or bringing in other crap about other folks.  Come from love.  Truth Force and Soul Force all the way.

See u in DC in July folks.   – if u cant go to DC – vlog/blog/fb tweet on july 21-23 – be part of the river of righteousness – would ya, could ya, shoulda ya?

yes indeedy

we be making the invisible visible

peace,

patti

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30 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. deafa
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 15:31:35

    offtopic: I am concern the school would not be able to teach her daughter English literacy from an ASL prospective. teaching deaf kids English in cold turkey rarely work.sure it work to help her speak and hear, but it doesn’t mean she’ll understand the sentence structures, especially if her first language is ASL. I hope MKM consider schools that best benefit her daughter

  2. patti
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 21:08:36

    deafa – we be people of HOPE, yes.

    peace

    patti

  3. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 21, 2011 @ 18:21:36

    #1, I would appreciate if you would take my personal information down. I feel like you are attempting to attack me by placing my personal information out for others to read. I don’t appreciate it.

    #2- Our summer at CID was not free.

    #3- No one pays or even ASKS me too blog about anything. I blog about what I feel like.

    #4- I would never give my phone number to a stranger, so, no I won’t we chatting with you. That is far too much information to give you. That would allow you access to my first and last name, for you to post here as well (see #1)

    #5- I certainly never said that I moved to St. Louis. I simply said we were moving east for an oral school.

    #6- You do not love me or my child, you do not know us.

    #7- I do disagree with you on a lot of things. You are advocating taking something AWAY from the majority it is working for, because it doesn’t work for a small minority. I believe in choice. I believe that families deserve the right to raise THEIR deaf child in their family. Just because ASL worked for my child in her early years does NOT mean it will work for another child. I would never tell another parent to get CIs and enroll their child in an oral school at age 5. (Beside the fat that it would probably never work and their child would end up needing sign and failing out of the school, if the school would even take them…) BUT if the parents ask for my opinion and my experience, and what I have read and learned, I would share that. I would explain that my daughter is an extrememly rare case who was born with typical hearing and then lost it slowly. That she had no access to spoken language with hearing aids, so we uses ASL as her primary language for 6 years. But I would also caution them that most kids implanted at her age would fail to learn spoken language and that LANGUAGE is what is important and that ASL will be accessible NOW and always.

    #8- My child is not hearing. She was, a very very long time ago, but the is long gone. She is now severe-profoundly deaf. Nothing on earth can change that and HOW DARE you pretend that I think otherwise. That is a disgusting accusation that Deaf people throw around at hearing parents to try to shame us for giving our children the opportunity to hear. My daughter CAN hear (sign at your EAR) but she will never be hearing (sign at your mouth). That is a dirty trick that you are attempting to push onto me, and it is revolting. I live with my daughter every single day. You have never even seen her. How can you pretend to know anything about her, her identity or our family. Shame on you.

  4. A Deaf Pundit
    Jun 21, 2011 @ 20:47:25

    I guess MKM didn’t like a taste of her own medicine. 😛

    But at any rate, I think it’s time to move past arguing with individuals like her. She’s shown over and over that only her and other hearing people’s experiences are valid. No Deaf person’s experiences are valid to her, apparently. Why bother continuing a conversation with someone who refuses to acknowledge your and others’ very valid points? And to be extremely blunt, people like MKM are SMALL-TIME.

    We need to take this to the big leagues, e.g. the policy-makers. They know the laws, and they WILL listen to reason, as long we frame it appropriately and respect people’s choices. I believe that if enough of us have a dialogue with our legislators and policy-makers, we will be able to ensure that ASL remains a viable option for parents and for the Deaf Community.

    Because make no mistake about it, we do have evidence that there are people and organizations out there who want to have ASL marginalized to the point where it’s a no longer functional choice for parents and others. It’s time to present that to the policy-makers and stop wasting our time with small-timers.

  5. patti
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 12:14:15

    my reply to MKM’s comments above – see Patti’s answer: under each item

    Posted by Miss Kat’s mom on June 21, 2011 at 6:21 pm edit

    #1, I would appreciate if you would take my personal information down. I feel like you are attempting to attack me by placing my personal information out for others to read. I don’t appreciate it.

    Patti’s answer: MKM, sorry for the delay in replying. i was traveling yesterday. i did see ur comment come in and thought u were requesting i remove ur comment from my blog entry but now in re-reading more carefully i think u are asking me to remove the summary at the top of this blog entry. Is that what you are complaining about? Pls clarify.

    Note – i have revised the summary based on the information you have provided below and the info i found in your old blog entries.

    Note – nothing i have stated in the summary is not already PUBLIC information by your own doing – you have made all that information public.

    Pls help me understand how sharing the truth is an attack on you.

    Note -i do not appreciate you attacking me by saying im attacking you. But this is nothing new. I have seen u folks continually call something an attack when it is simply the truth.

    #2- Our summer at CID was not free.

    Patti’s Answer: Thank you for correcting me. I went back to your blog entry on this and see that you said the almost $3,000 tuition got reduced to $200 so i have noted that above. I asked for corrections and i appreciate that u provided them. Im a stickler for the truth.

    #3- No one pays or even ASKS me too blog about anything. I blog about what I feel like.

    Patti’s Answer: good to know.

    #4- I would never give my phone number to a stranger, so, no I won’t we chatting with you. That is far too much information to give you. That would allow you access to my first and last name, for you to post here as well (see #1)

    Patti’s Answer: I did NOT ask for your phone number. You could go to a internet cafe and we could do skype or google video etc. I do not need or want to know your real name. I wanted to afford us an opportunity to truly talk. We can get around issues of your identity (which is already revealed in the John Spencer Tracey promotional video). I aint got no desire to know your real name or phone number or address or…. I just wanted to offer u a chance to connect but alas u decline. No problem.

    #5- I certainly never said that I moved to St. Louis. I simply said we were moving east for an oral school.

    Patti’s Answer: thank you for the correction – i have made the revision in the summary at top.

    #6- You do not love me or my child, you do not know us.

    Patti’s Answer: it is the truth that i do but if u prefer i don’t in your mind – that is fine with me.

    #7- I do disagree with you on a lot of things. You are advocating taking something AWAY from the majority it is working for, because it doesn’t work for a small minority. I believe in choice. I believe that families deserve the right to raise THEIR deaf child in their family. Just because ASL worked for my child in her early years does NOT mean it will work for another child. I would never tell another parent to get CIs and enroll their child in an oral school at age 5. (Beside the fat that it would probably never work and their child would end up needing sign and failing out of the school, if the school would even take them…) BUT if the parents ask for my opinion and my experience, and what I have read and learned, I would share that. I would explain that my daughter is an extrememly rare case who was born with typical hearing and then lost it slowly. That she had no access to spoken language with hearing aids, so we uses ASL as her primary language for 6 years. But I would also caution them that most kids implanted at her age would fail to learn spoken language and that LANGUAGE is what is important and that ASL will be accessible NOW and always.

    Patti’s Answer: I do not understand your first sentence in #7 – what is the “something” I am advocating for taking AWAY folks????

    To clarify – i do not oppose Deaf folks learning to speak etc. I oppose programs that actively ban Deaf folks from signing and using visual acuity. FOUR major world organizations have condemned this erroneous and unjust practice MKM

    it looks like from your statement that perhaps u do too. if true, ya hoo – we have struck a common ground.

    #8- My child is not hearing. She was, a very very long time ago, but the is long gone. She is now severe-profoundly deaf. Nothing on earth can change that and HOW DARE you pretend that I think otherwise. That is a disgusting accusation that Deaf people throw around at hearing parents to try to shame us for giving our children the opportunity to hear. My daughter CAN hear (sign at your EAR) but she will never be hearing (sign at your mouth). That is a dirty trick that you are attempting to push onto me, and it is revolting. I live with my daughter every single day. You have never even seen her. How can you pretend to know anything about her, her identity or our family. Shame on you.

    Patti’s Answer: whoa – down girl down. Re-read what i wrote. I ain’t said that you think that Kat is a hearing person. maybe you can copy and paste the statement i made in my blog entry that makes you think that i think that kat is hearing?

    it is interesting to note though that u did go a little slap happy over the fact that Kat could hear the flap of a toilet lid while her cochlear implant was off. I am totally not gonna argue with u about whether or not she heard it. I understand the Deaf folks’ point about vibrations and i understand ur point about fluctuating residual hearing and i am confident that the audiologists tested Kat after the 2nd CI unaided to get the base line of what her hearing was in comparison to when the CIs were activated etc

    u dont need to prove nothing to me on that one

    what was so striking to me, Miss Kat’s Mom, is just how important it would be to you that she can hear without her cochlear implants – and the flap of a toilet lid – really that is news worthy, that is worth getting urself worked up about? i have never seen u do a blog entry on the moment Kat used an ASL classifier correctly or spontaneously unaided, or how she created a little ABC / # ASL story, or…..

    kinda speaks volumes don’t it?

    so yes im aware that you are acutely aware of your daughter being deaf and having some functioning hearing au naturale even post ci surgeries and having some hearing via artificial augmentation

    so nope i have never said that kat is a hearing person because she is NOT

    i am puzzled at why there is so much emphasis put upon what she CAN hear if you truly are so accepting of the fact that she is Deaf

    its just a wee bit confusing

    but no worries – i only make this effort cuz i care and love etc

    which u will groan and moan at smile

    now off to much more bigger matters – the death of deafness a la AG Bell association and co. We be on the move and moving on up, MKM

    and final note – this is not an attack MKM. this is the truth and u can take it or leave it as u see fit.

    peace

    patti

  6. patti
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 12:29:24

    Deaf Pundit

    i agree with you wholeheartedly that the truth campaign must continue re: the big enchiladas and the big picture and the policy makers and not the baker’s man

    my eyes have not wavered from the systems that are seeking to perpetuate the reign of error – ie the push for oral / aural ONLYism+CIs

    and im very grateful you are on the case. its really important

    all hands on deck

    re: your statement “Why bother continuing a conversation with someone who refuses to acknowledge your and others’ very valid points? And to be extremely blunt, people like MKM are SMALL-TIME.”

    well, im of the mind that a person’s a person no matter how small and im a hoper – its what i do. so sometimes i gotta put my best face effort forward and if it dont work – i will at least know that i tried

    rest assured i am not beating me head against the wall on this one. i know Miss Kat’s mom is where she is at for a reason. The blog entry was a shout out of “no way can you tell us to MOVE ON when you mean to ignore or minimize the past and the truth which is ACTIVELY shaping our present and our future – no way can u do that”

    re: some folks thinking our thoughts, beliefs, values, actions, experience, wisdom, knowledge is not valid

    folks thought and said the same thing about MLKing Jr, Gandhi, and many others

    we are in company

    truth force, love force

    all the way

    thanks again for ur comment and commitment

    peace

    patti

  7. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 14:54:11

    I believe you are trying to intimidate me by placing as much of my personal information in one spot as possible, so that if someone wants to find me, they can do it easily. (Like those who were angry about Candy and the California bill did.) I don’t like it, I think it is dirty.

    What you are taking away from kids that works IS oral programs. A large majority of kids who graduate from these programs go on to be extremely successful. It works for them, and you want to take it away.

    As for the stupid residual hearing post, as I wrote, I thought it was an odd fact. I wanted to ask other CI users how much hearing they had left, and other parents if their children could hear that sort of thing. It was a surprise, an abberent “hearing moment” so I wrote about it. The stupidity lies with the people who got pissed off and yelled at me. They said that I needed psychological help. (Nice community, right?) As I said before, if there are people going around to hearing families and saying this garbage, do you really think they are going to consider venturing out to a Deaf community activity? Not if they believe they are going to be attacked. Most hearing families have had to moderate their comments or make their blogs private. I choose not to because I believe it shows the ignorance of the other side. (Though, your post here has made me highly consider it.)

    As I said in the comment section of the previous post, if you want to continue to complain and be angry, go right ahead. BUT know that the enrollments of Deaf schools will continue to fall, as will the numbers of hering families who choose sign. The angrier the Deaf community appears, the less hearing parents will choose to allow their children access to it. The more parents who get attacked, the faster the word spreads that the Deaf community hates us and our children, and the further into the arms of the other side they run.

  8. MZ
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 17:15:17

    “What you are taking away from kids that works IS oral programs. A large majority of kids who graduate from these programs go on to be extremely successful. It works for them, and you want to take it away.”

    why do you feel so threatened by deaf people’s comments? ordinarily people won’t react so strongly if they don’t feel threatened. if you feel deaf people have no credibility, then why are you wasting your time attacking. dissing, and invalidating them? there will always be dissenters. what are you trying desperately trying to hide? is it because you feel there is some truth to what they are saying? as a moderate, i see some kids with c.i doing well, yet i also observe some not progressing well.

    for some reason, this reminds me of susanna. her response left me floored, shocked, and morally outraged. for those who may not know about that incident, here is the link:

    “Mishka, I think it’s possibly beneficial for the deaf community for you to post these blogs. But it may be entirely detrimental to parents who come across them in the early stages if they even consider choosing against a CI for an infant. That is my personal opinion. I am not neutral, I am speaking in favor of the choice which allows deaf infants to avoid such painful situations as Aaron described in his childhood.” Susanna Mishka Zena » Blog Archive » CI Teen: My Struggle With Social Life http://www.mishkazena.com/2008/01/18/ci-detrimental-to-tell-parents-the-full-truth/

    i’m seeing some similarities here.

    have a nice day, mkm

  9. Misha
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 17:45:35

    MKM,
    I really do resent your remark “The stupidity lies with the people who got pissed off and yelled at me. They said that I needed psychological help. (Nice community, right?)”. Because you lump us together when it came from an individual, not us. How dare you target us “nice community” telling you about getting help! I really do resent that.
    For the record about oral, you honestly believe there is success rate for children to talk, I’d like you to think again. Once, right now your child at age of 6 or 5 (correct me if I’m wrong since I’m not sure about your child’s age) talks, mom would go “AHHHH, LOOK! MY GIRL CAN TALK! YAY!” You and school will keep praising her till she graduates from oral school…..that is fine but DO NOT get your hopes HIGH once she’s out of school. She may, I stress the word “may”, be very delusional when she attempts to carry some conversation with hearing people who may end up saying “Huh? Wha? Speak louder, please. Uh, sorry I don’t understand. Huh? Hmmm, huh?” while you and her family understand her well. Outside the family is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from what you’re thinking. I wouldn’t dream of asking you to get some help because I don’t know you at all. I don’t know your child but I can see where she’s coming from. I can see where you’re coming from since I got a lot of stories from my parents who sent me to oral school.
    You attacked us while we tried to explain with our reasons WITHOUT attacking you. WTF with that? Are you that defensive? Your daughter may NOT explain clearly what she “hears” when the toilet lid slammed down. You could have very well waited till she gets older, she may explain in details what she heard and whatnot. Right now….I don’t think so. To me when you attack us, you come off as a bitter and delusional mother. Actually I really do feel sorry for you.
    Misha

  10. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 18:13:55

    My child is 8, not 5. She is old enough to tell me what she understands and what she doesn’t.

    Again, the difference between her experience growing up with spoken language and that of a generation ago is that she can hear. She can hear, understand and respond to the spoken language of strangers, including when she can not see them. She does not lipread, she understands running spoken language.

    Is there a possibility that she will grow up and decide to change her primary language of communication back to ASL, of course! And what the heck is wrong with that? I am just following her lead and right now she is learning English and using that as her primary language. If she wants to switch back to ASL, we would gladly do so. But, if you are imply that most oral kids do, that is a myth. The majority of people with a hearing loss use spoken language.

    I have not attacked anyone here. I have responded to questions and stated my opinion. I refuse to sugar coat it because we are all adults and isn’t the Deaf community widely known to appreciate straightforwardness?

  11. A Deaf Pundit
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 18:20:46

    Oh, we appreciate straightforwardness. But that’s not what’s happening here with you. Far from it.

  12. MZ
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 18:43:48

    for your information. i’m not referring to your daughter. you work very closely with her and your commitment is obvious to the readers. the cochlear implant itself pretty much works most of the time. I believe it’s above 95 percent, close to 97 percent. it’s the brain that sometimes have problems translating sounds to meaningful words. it could be due to poor mapping, it could be the skills of the audiologist or the surgeon. the avt program isn’t foolproof, despite the insistences of many oral proponents. there are many variables that potentially affect the ability of the brain to decipher sounds to a meaningful language. should that happen, where is the back up system to ensure that the child’s linguistic foundation doesn’t get permanently damaged?

  13. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 19:07:21

    As I stated before I believe if we show parents the benefits of ASL, rather than tear down the other side, more families will seek ASL out. Additionally, if we make Deaf schools bimodal rather than just ASL and written English, they would attract more families. If families see that they can have superior spoken language services as well as spoken English being used and valued, they would see the schools as an option.

  14. Shel
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 23:37:59

    MKM, Your comment places a HEAVY emphasis on spoken languages. You believe “WE show parents the benefits of ASL”… Then you would do well to begin advocating for ASL in your own posts instead of focusing only on CI and how your daughter can hear sounds. I understand you take delight in her hearing things, but you are also subconsciously adding to the pressure on parents to emphasize the speaking and listening over that of ASL, and therefore adding to the propaganda out there that is overwhelming all about how to make children HEAR and SPEAK. You’re sending the message that you’re paying lip service to ASL, unfortunately. I’m not saying this to attack you… not at all.

  15. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 23, 2011 @ 00:18:14

    Currently my child’s primary means of communicating is in spoken language. We have followed her lead, and that is where we have ended up. When it was ASL, you plainly saw my joy in her story-telling and the cute things she would say in ASL. If you look back through my blog, it is there. Right now she signs only a handful of times a day, so no, not a lot of signing stories come up. I can’t control the way she chooses to express herself. Even when we are around ASL users, she tend to find the kids who can hear and speak, and hangs with them and chooses to sign only when “neccessary” (and believe me, we have discussed how important it is that she sign around Deaf people, she just forgets a lot.) When we are in compromised hearing situations, I offer to interpret, she sometimes says yes. More often though, she chooses to get herself into a more optimal place, so she can hear better. Again, none of this is my choice. We continue to offer ASL, take her to Deaf events, socialize with ASL using children…we are offering both. (I will not, however, force ASL when she tells me to stop signing.)

  16. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 23, 2011 @ 00:20:04

    And again, 85-90% of hearing parents want their children to listen and speak, so if a program wants them to be interested, they must offer those services. It is simple math. If you want your school to stay open, you need to have parents.

  17. Ella Mae Lentz
    Jun 23, 2011 @ 01:46:43

    MKM, 85-90% of hearing parents want their children to listen and speak….where does this number come from? who did the research/survey? how did the parents find out their children are Deaf?

    Patti, AMENNNN!!!! wonderful response as always! The truth of human nature and justice be marching on! The past and the future interlocked…can’t solve today’s problems and cant plan for future without a complete understanding of the past… Or maybe it’s something certain Deaf children are being denied of…their past in order to build their futures?

  18. handeyes
    Jun 23, 2011 @ 13:51:54

    heye all

    i aint ignoring ya. im just away and have shoddy internet access. Keep fighin’ the good fight folks

    we r on the move and that is mighty upsetting to some folks

    no worries – its RISE & SHINE time

    We hold these truths to be self-evident – ALL folks are created equal

    just a howdy – keep on discussing and knowing the truth is on our side

    peace much

    patti

  19. Michele Westfall Ketcham
    Jun 23, 2011 @ 23:06:07

    Miss Kat’s Mom—I don’t typically read your blogs, but in reading all of comments here, I have to ask you this.

    Do you sign all day, everyday?

    I ask this because the child *does* follow what the parent does. If the parent doesn’t sign, the child won’t, either. If the parent signs, the child will.

    I have never seen a deaf kid, anywhere, “prefer” to use voice, IF the parents sign all day, everyday.

    The reason you are getting the responses that you have been getting is because we Deaf people KNOW what we are talking about. We, too, watched our parents and we took note of what *type* of communication (or language) they used, and reacted accordingly.

    For the record, I’m Deaf. I use ASL everyday, all day. My HEARING parents used signs everyday, all day. Because they did that, I never felt I had to use my voice to communicate.

    I’m now a mother of two Deaf sons, and they have never expressed a desire to use their voice, either. They sign all day, everyday, just as I do.

  20. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 23, 2011 @ 23:49:12

    We used to sign all day every day, yes. Then she started dropping the signs and speaking at her voice-off bi-bi school. So we followed her lead. Miss Kat is not the first CI user that I have known to come from a signing home that prefers spoken language. I know Deaf parents who have deaf kids with CIs who prefer spoken language. It is not at all uncommon. She never “has to” use her voice, she prefers it. Even when I sign to her, she nearly always speaks back.

  21. MZ
    Jun 24, 2011 @ 02:09:48

    it’s been my observation that with the ci deaf kids of deaf parents preferring to speak than sign, their deaf parents are raised as orally and are more comfortable speaking than signing. their c.i. deaf children pick up on that.

  22. Dianrez
    Jun 24, 2011 @ 06:46:49

    Interesting, MZ and MKM. Thinking back to when I was raising my kids, one deaf and two hearing: the deaf kid signed all the time and we signed to him. The hearing kids I spoke to because it worked best to hold their attention and they chose to sign back to me. Children will go with what works best.

    MKM, Miss Kat is speaking to you because for her, that works best. Maybe it is because you respond better to her that way. Figure it out–are your own responses in a fully featured ASL, or a stilted, parental sign language? Are you responding to her more gladly in speech, even though it may be in a carefully enunciated way? In other ways, you are letting her know that you value hearing and speech.

  23. deafa
    Jun 24, 2011 @ 13:46:30

    I don’t feel comfortable about signing with my hearing family so its common for deaf to speak with hearing people. I am not sure why kat would speak at her bi-bi (ASL/written English) unless there are other deaf kids or adults who can speak and hear.

  24. Joseph Pietro Riolo
    Jun 24, 2011 @ 22:39:47

    It is too easy to be a bystander, leaving the individuals to fend for themselves. I have waited too long and it is time for me not to be a bystander.

    What you wrote about Miss Kat’s Mom was not an act of love. When I first read your post, the thought of bullying came to my mind. Later on, Miss Kat’s Mom confirmed my feeling when she wrote that she felt being intimidated. Love requires empathy and a high degree of sensitivity to other people. It requires a great deal of wisdom in using the facts about people. Even though facts are all accurate, love requires a good judgment on when to use facts and when not to use facts. Tact is an attribution of love. It is no wonder that she did not see any love out from the blog post and I agree with her. Can we be kind to her from now on?

    The technology of cochlear implant is very powerful. It enables the deaf children and their parents to use the spoken languages more often than the signed languages because cochlear implant provides more direct access to the sounds in the spoken languages than before. This is why the listening and speaking method is becoming more popular. This is not like the past where the hearing technologies were crude when compared with cochlear implant. That seems to be one of the points that Miss Kat’s Mom was trying to make. I know that there will be always some people who are eager to criticize and vilify cochlear implant, to find faults in the parents who use cochlear implant and method for their deaf children and so forth. They have the freedom to do that and I certainly will defend their freedom. But, the users and supporters of cochlear implant and listening and speaking method will simply roll their eyes and do their best to maximize the potential in their deaf children’s ability to listen and speak the spoken languages.

    Joseph Pietro Riolo
    josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com

    Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.

  25. Don G.
    Jun 25, 2011 @ 16:17:39

    JPR — How is it “bullying” to lay out the facts and history behind MKM, as we have seen it? Where Patti was factually wrong, she made revisions as pointed out by MKM in those areas which were not based in opinion or as a matter of perspective. To me, that’s not a sign of bullying behavior.

    You and others have decried the overuse of the “A” word, the “E” word, the “H” name, the “N” (Nazi) comparisons. Might I suggest that you are engaging in the same, the overuse of a certain “B” word?

  26. handeyes
    Jun 25, 2011 @ 22:31:47

    heye all

    thank u for ur comments – dialogue is good

    Joseph – re: love – there is such a thing as being firm with love and tough love. i was not attacking miss kat’s mom. i was telling the TRUTH and yes i do know that the truths can be intimidating for some folks

    what am i to do about that?

    i care enuf about her to invest in stating the FACT that her telling us to “move on” is wrong and insulting

    yes she has every right to say it but it is not the RIGHT thing to tell us to do

    and THAT is what this blog entry is about. it is not about kat’s cochlear implants or about speech or the flapping of a toilet lid

    it is about Miss Kat’s Mom telling Deaf folks not to care about their past & about dissing the Deaf

    i aint having it

    i have a right to say that and i said it as lovingly as i could.

    We are not children of a lesser g-d Joseph III and we shall not be treated as such

    we have a history, we have a present that is looking alot like the past that was forged / forced on the ears and the mouths of Deaf children and i for one am not gonna let the de ja vu dance go down without a fight

    nothing about us without us

    we be on the MOVE

    not moving on but on the move

    thanks – ya just inspired a new post

    peace

    patti

  27. Dianrez
    Jun 26, 2011 @ 01:56:21

    JPR, I see the “bullying” you refer to as statements of truth in the face of delusion and exaggerations. Nothing was said against choices for CI’s or AVT, but against the over-optimistic CLAIMS that are made about them.

    People are convinced that CI’s work better than we know they actually do. Most of our responses were meant not as attacks on Miss Kat’s mom or her choices, but on myths that hearing people NEED to believe.

    It is a fact that deaf people are sensitive to low-frequency sounds that come across as air pressure or vibrations through solid objects. Sometimes we can actually see the vibrations, i.e. in suspended obects like venetian blinds and chandeliers. We saw Miss Kat’s mom saying things that reminded us of our parents getting excited when we sensed the TV was blasting full on or an object was dropped, and saw it as evidence of putting hearing above vibrotactile sensation.

    It’s only low-frequency sound, hey? Why not take our experience to heart instead of dismissing it?

    A truck backfired when I was walking on the street with hearing coworkers. We all jumped and they marveled that I could hear that. Maybe I did, it was THAT loud. What I thought interesting was that I also sensed a percussion in the air, just fractionally, before the explosion. Like this: ka-POW. I had started to react a split-second before the others did. Similarly with thunder. It might have to do with pressure waves and sound waves arriving at different speeds.

    But try explaining that to hearing people. All they understand is HEARING itself.

  28. deafa
    Jun 26, 2011 @ 14:47:31

    yeah. I don’t understand why people get upset about it . I thought they wouldn’t mind when deaf explain about the vibrotactile. Mainly because people can be denial that their child may be deaf and bang on pans and say, “see , she can hear!” (from stories I heard and read, denial of deafness triggered many neglect and abuse- I am very wary of people who are denial that their child is deaf)

    oh well. I do think its possible she heard it but still no excuse for denial.

  29. handeyes
    Jun 27, 2011 @ 01:09:25

    Dianrez – thanks for sharing ur experiences and POVs

    deafa –

    i have seen folks who are in denial of their kids being Deaf and yep sometimes it can lead to neglecting their Deaf-selves or abuse

    Recently i met a mom and someone told me that she was an “exception to the rule of Hearing parents having to go through the 4 stages of grief – denial, anger, bargaining, depression before they get to ACCEPTANCE). i said really – “how’s that?” and so the Deaf person said “tell Patti your first response when you learned your baby daughter was Deaf” (Note; her daughter is now in her teens) The mom replied, “my husband and I said, ‘cool, how do we learn sign language.”

    wow

    how cool is that

    she also added – “yep, and later when we had a follow testing with the audiologist and she was looking at as all puppy eyed to say ‘your daughter will never be able to hear ‘S’…’ My husband said “Great – she wont be able to hear all my cuss words.”

    I love this couple. there daughter has hearing aids and signs beautifully. Mom says she is the queen alpha over her hearing brothers at home. In a word – she is well adjusted.

    go figure – i thought she was supposed to be destined to a life of hopelessness and dependency because she used and loved ASL. At least that is what i read in the AG Bell letter to Pepsi.

    i have met other moms and dads like this. there really are many who love their Deaf child as is – perfect

    re: what kat heard or didnt hear. I care not. I just care about why MOM cares so much that kat can hear the can lid plop.

    re: Denial – well as my brother always says de-nile ain’t just a river in Egypt ; )

    it is a mighty long river to be paddling against the current of truth on

    peace

    Patti

  30. deafa
    Jun 27, 2011 @ 21:53:38

    I can understand some denial, but there are some people out there who just can not reach acceptance. Just recently I read another of those story on the forum where a girl just diagnosed in her late teen and her father took her hearing aids away. He wanted her look hearing as much as possible with no signs of being deaf.

    And, of course I have stories from my grandma about her physical abusive father, too.

    about the puppy dog eye looks and she will hear “s” sounds.. how often professionals do that to deaf parents of deaf child? or they do that mostly on hearing parents?

    seem like they like to put parents in a defensive mode. one doctor suggested a person to send them to deaf school because they never will be able to hear and speak, and the parents are like “NO WAY” and is determined to prove the doctor wrong. Doctors do have a way with people, don’t they?

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