An Answer to Mishka Zena’s Noble and Just Question

this here is a long one and i have trimmed it several times (imagine!!!!! geez big picture thinking never affords for less-is-more at least not with me.  so i apologize for the lengthiness but i been thinking and when im thinking lots of things come clear)

Mishka Zena has brought forth some evidence on the connection between the AG Bell Association and the Deafness Research Center, which aim is for a Death of Deafness – see

and Hear Indiana is a chapter of AG Bell Association and they are being forced upon the Indiana School for the Deaf by the governor.  (yes, its not cool to appoint UNqualified and BIASED board members onto a bilingual-bicultural school. – Monolingual oral / aural advocates are NOT qualified to guide a bilingual-bicultural school – common sense dude!)

In Mishka Zena’s blog she poses a Noble and Just Question – Is AGBell Assc. Destroying Deaf Culture?

and the answer is …. drum roll

YES AG Bell, da man, and the Association have been trying to destroy Deaf Culture

AG Bell the man and agency have NOT been shy (but they have been sly at times) about their ambition, values, and efforts

the good news is despite of all their efforts and arrogance – they have thus far FAILED.

Yep AG Bell association – u get a big Fat Red-hot F.

But the bad news is that all there efforts have made an adverse impact on Deaf folks, ASL, and Deaf culture

soooo……. Welcome to the War of Attrition, folks.

AG Bell and Assoc have been leading the campaign against American Sign Language for a MIGHTY lllllllooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggg time!

“Enemies of the sign language, they are enemies of the true welfare of the deaf.”   ~ George W. Veditz, 1913

I too was like Mishka Zena – not really wanting to SEE and BELIEVE a lot of the stuff that was out there but then whenever I kept pulling up and SEEING truths and facts and attempted to bring them into the light of day I was slapped in the face in return with…






By the very folks who were DEMANDING proof.  That right there is very telling – that folks would say PROVE IT and when u do they would say “well no not really” and “that is debatable” or “look look look over here at this Mayan prophecy – ya better get busy stockpiling ur bunker” –

ohhh did I mention detraction, distraction, and drama triangle too

and did i mention to u all that the world is in fact ROUND?  i know some folks will debate that but it is.  They can just sail away off the edge of the earth with their bogus b.s. or they can WAKE UP.  The option is all theirs.

and i do know that waking up is hard to do.  i know this because i been-there-done that and i still dont like seeing the full truth – for example when folks who have cochlear implants tell me some things, often my first response is “No, that can not be” but then they demonstrate what IS and im like DANG!

(latest example is the person who told me they havent used their CI in about 3 years because the internal implant is broken and recently someone else with a CI told them – u know if u dont use it the magnet looses its magnetic powers over time – kind de-magnetizes.  To which i said – that doesnt make sense – so he took a magnet that was there and ran it over his head and it would not catch.  I said well did the magnet move – so he rubs it further and further away from the area of the incision – all over the area back and forth and says – NOPE NOTHING!   and i was like hmmmmmm.  I dont know the cause of it and when i asked someone at Cochlear Americas about it they said well maybe the magnet moved and i explained well how doe it get out of that little case and move and how far would it have had to move to not catch anything and GEEZ that is not good either.  so either it went dead like the internal cochlear chip has gone dead or its wandering – yikes!  See i do NOT want to learn these things but they keep falling into my lap!)

yep waking up is hard to do.

This is why…

This is why
Why we fight
Why we lie awake
And this is why
This is why we fight

(see the video with images from Deaf US history set to the lyrics of This is Why We Fight

Grrr the war of attrition

(see the Right to be Deaf part I, II, III, IV in this blogsite and see how Deaf schools are under attack – put in Deaf schools and Institutions in the search box of this blogsite or just go see NAD’s latest vlog on the subject)

Yes AG Bell, da man, and the association have had its eyes on Deaf folks ears and mouths and their hands and eyes for a mighty long time

There chief aim, aspiration, and goal?  “independence through listening and talking”

Problem: this implies / connotes / conveys that folks who do not speak or listen are not independent

Really?  that is a major falsehood right there.  Our declaration of Independence spells out that we r all created equal and must be treated as such.

boo – false advertising by AG Bell Association

AG Bell’s bread and butter is making the Deaf speak and hear.  Wow is that not just so old and passé given the fact that ASL is quickly becoming the third most studied language in the US of A.  Isnt that just so passé in a time when this country is becoming more and more diverse and where DIVERSITY is all the buzz and where we finally have an African-American president and soon someday may have a woman one.  Isnt that just so old and passe when they still have not figured out why some Deaf folks can learn to speak and hear better than others – that it basically takes heroic means or the luck of the draw but there is no consistent and reliable magic wand for their “independence” illusion.

Now again I don’t begrudge anyone the ability to speak and listen – that is no biggie.

it is the EXCLUDING / EXTREMINATING /DENYING / VILIFYING of a Deaf child’s right to a natural and fully accessible language

that there is a PROBLEM and that there has been AG Bell’s specialty

Just see the mounting international documents that affirm this fundamental human right for Deaf children to sign language and the declarations of UNCOOL – the denying of natural signed languages – UNCOOL:

World Health Organization

UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities

ICED 2010 New Era and Accord for the Future

World Federation of the Deaf

¡Ya basta! AG Bell Association – ¡Ya basta!  (¡Ya basta! means enough is enough)

AG Bell, the MAN, and the ORGANIZATION are rooted in social darwinist, eugenicist, and extremist practices and philosophies

I don’t care if u want to spin it as “positive” eugenics vs. “negative” eugenics – it makes no never mind to me.

Eugenics is eugenics.  oppression is oppression.  wrong is wrong.  – and we can dress up stuff with a bunch of euphemisms all u like – “a dept of hygiene” that collects babies’ blood at birth and sedating babes to do HEARING tests so that they can strap them up as early as possible, and “options.”  (that there to me is one of the most ridiculous euphemisms to come down the pike of Deaf education – “options” and “option schools” that actively PROHIBIT sign language and visual acuity)

Wow wee

But back to AG B and co.

Folks want proof – well all ya’ll got to do is open ur eyes

Yes yes I’s know they r deep sixing a lot of the proof but its all still there – what is THERE

and what has gone missing and the sin of omission – it is ALL very telling for those who are awake and aware

Lets start at the beginning (and yes folks I know audism, Oralism, paternalism, phonocentrism, etc were around long before AG Bell but we r applying a wee bit of FOCUS right now as they are the biggest bullies on the block and they have been weaving a very tangled web of which too many parents and Deaf children have been caught up in.  We do this Ya Basta shout out for them and the new ones)

AG Bell da man – The Father of Audism

AG Bell:

– the chief architect & advocate of the oral / aural ONLY exclusive method in Deaf Education in the US

– Banned ASL from the classroom

– Banned Deaf people from becoming teachers

– Tried to prevent Deaf to Deaf marraiges

– Aimed to close down Deaf publications, organizations and conventions

– Supported Eugenics

Children were regulated to forever more have to “WORK FOR THEIR WORDS”

Also under AG Bell’s reign of error – pure Oralism – came physical abuse.  En masse – I have not found one Oral / Aural ONLY program that did not resort to some type of excessive punishment to coerce the children into compliance.  Even RSD which allowed fingerspelling only (the Rochester method) had a small black isolation room to punish the signers in.

And here we mean much worse than the typical paddle to the bum that was allowed in all public schools back in the days of corporal punishment.  Here we mean EXTREME #hit.  Psychological, physical, social, cultural, and spiritual abuse.

It was rampant and AG Bell must have known of it – he visited schools, he worked in some schools, he spearheaded an association of “professionals” for the promotion of Oralism (along with being the Chairman of an Eugenics Society)

I aint saying he encouraged the abuse in the name of Oralism but I can not find ANYTHING that came from him or his organization or his publication (the Volta Review out of the Volta Bureau) that DISCOURAGED this.  ODD, eh?

Now if he was such a benevolent chap and a leader in the field – why didn’t he call for an end to this abuse?  Why didn’t he disavow it publicly?  He was not shy about making public statements – not at all (except when he was about to be busted).  Well, my guess is IF he did then in doing so he would have to admit and acknowledge that it was happening and he did not want his method and his crusade tarnished.  At worse maybe he never spoke out against it because he saw it as a necessary evil in the effort to “restore the Deaf to society.”  I know not.  All I know is that he SAID NOTHING.  Bystanding while grandstandings the wonders of Oralism is NOT COOL.

And everybody should have been screaming about the abuses that were taking place in Deaf education under the banner of Oral / Aural ONLYISM.

Given the fact that Bell is pretty much proven to be a master of deceit – see the Telephone Gambit by Seth Shulman, A Place of Their Own by Drs. Van Cleve and Crouch, Forbidden Signs by Dr. Douglas Baynton, When the Mind Hears and Mask of Benevolence by Dr. Lane – he has not proven himself to be very trustworthy and noble and good.

By any means necessary seemed ok with him – deep sixing and covering up truths seemed par for the course – he done it big time with the telephone plagiarism and theft and with Mabel’s age of onset for her “deafness”, with breaking his promise to EMG and going behind his back to Congress to demand that the Normal School (Deaf Ed. Teacher training program) at Gallaudet would only be funded if it only admit HEARING students (not Deaf – he did not like Deaf teaching Deaf), and by his dying words to his “Oral only” wife being on his FINGERTIPS and not on his lips.

There is more – there is more but u get the picture.

AG Bell was an extremist and his legacy is a BLACK mark on Deaf U.S. history.  He imprinted the scarlet letter of A for audism upon the hearts, heads and souls of many a Deaf children.  “you are children of a lesser god my darling but if u talk like me and walk like me, u shall inherit the earth”

another crock of crap cuz we all know that Deaf folks who can hear a plenty and speak a plenty still experience audism a bad-n-plenty.

Thankfully the truth always prevails and ASL and Deaf culture has SURVIVED despite and inspite of the war of attrition

(did u know that every 14 days a language goes extinct? – excellent link but…

note this map and site does not acknowledge signed languages – grr phonocentrism, linguicism and audism by National Geographics and how ODD considering that AG Bell and his son-in-law took over this scientific society hmmm)

Now for the Association that bears AG Bell’s name:

AG Bell the Association has worked long and HARD to undermine Deaf culture and ASL.

Don’t believe me – read a bloody book would ya.

Of late what has AG Bell Association done to show it’s Anti-ASL and Deaf culture?

–       Pepsi letter where it refers to Deaf folks who sign as isolated and dependent

–       Pressuring the Smithsonian History Through Deaf Eyes exhibit not to show the black mark of Oralism on Deaf culture and ASL (i.e. trying to bury the truth)

–       Denouncing Deaf ASL folks right to their first amendment (Free speech and assembly)

–       AG Bell has advocated for AVT&CIs

–       Pulling out Deaf oral folks for dog and pony shows

–       AG Bell Association had a long running Circle Alliance Founders Partnership with two cochlear implant companies that have both been fined – Advanced Bionics fined for its faulty CIs that leaked and zapped and Cochlear Americas fined for kick backs with professionals (Dr, Audilologists, and speech and language pathologists) and insurance fraud)

–       Has the Deafness Research Foundation as a sponsor for its conference – the Deafness Research Foundation has proclaimed its mission of eradicating deafness – “A Death to Deafness” and AG Bell accepts their money, their patronage, and their research

–       Option Schools – AG Bell works closely with a lot of option schools – which actively prohibit ASL

–       AG Bell Academy certifies folks all over the country in Auditory Verbal Therapy which while they recently chopped off the part in principle 3 that said no signing and lipreading in practice they are still training folks to use the fan thingy to cover up the lips and to discourage signing and visual acuity – thank gosh AG Bell does not work with blind folks.  Who knows – they might make them wear ear guards and take away their white canes so they could be “independent” and “function” in a seeing world BETTER.

–       AG Bell runs an Oral / Aural only camp – I could tell u stories of some students who attended and cried because they were picked on due to the fact that their speech and listening skills were not all that slicky and they were made to feel inferior.

–       AG Bell association did not acknowledge ASL as a language in and off itself until very recently and still frames it as if it is some type of deviation to the natural order of things.  Are they slow or what, huh???? – its just smoke and mirrors folks – they r trying to give themselves a bit of a facelift now that ASL is popular, baby signs are spreading, and world organizations are saying HEY NO BANNING SIGN LANGUAGE

–       AG Bell association has not formally signed the ICED 2010 New Era Agreement and Accord for the Future and only takes out ONE sentence from the whole document and chops out the “remember history” part hmmmm – wow LAME and OBVIOUS.  we can READ ya know.  The WHOLE thing as in holistic

–       Really it is endless  – there is more and SOME DAY someone or two with a conscience will drag more stuff out into the sun for all to see but in the meantime we know this: – AG Bell Association does support oral / aural only programs and practices.

at the beginning of the new millennium – after the 2YK scare had gone and past – i was continually besieged by town criers saying a new era, a new world order, a new type of Deaf people were gonna be coming forward from the bowels of cochlear implantation, mainstreaming, and a decline of the Deaf schools by the year of 20-10

Odd – this is 2011 and while CI have INCREASED (wow and yikes) Deaf folks are still largely signing people and Deaf schools are still needed and wanted and Deaf are still Deaf.  ODD, eh?

U can remote control them and they are still gonna be Deaf and they are still gonna be ENTITLED to a fully natural and accessible language and not having to WORK for their WORLDS all their waking hours.

Aint it ODD how Deaf folks actually want to stay in this Deaf-world while simultaneously enjoying the hearing world too – ie being bilingual-bicultural and aint it ODD how so many folks who were raised oral / aural ONLY come to the Deaf-world late in life and are like #hit and dang why wasn’t I given this a long time ago and despite having “independence through listening and talking” don’t want to go home for Thanksgiving cuz it’s a lot of work all that listening and talking.

Not only is the result that many of them are still estranged from their families but they are often estranged from Deaf ASL culture too.  As Gina Olivia said in the documentary film “Through Deaf Eyes”

“I think Alexander Graham Bell’s greatest crime was keeping deaf people apart from each other.  It wasn’t so much that he thought speech was important.  Worse than that was that he didn’t want deaf people to marry each other.  He didn’t want them to be near each other.  He wanted them to be apart.”

so what do we get for all this Oral / Aural only independence BS:  severed family relations, low literacy rates, employment discrimination, and a torn and tattered and tension riddled landscape

despite all the kings horse and all the kings men (even got a summer camp with horses to help Deaf kids learn to talk and listen – what geez colorado u r a beautiful state but my heavens Cochlears Americas, Otologics, and horses to make u work for ur words) – despite all these bells and whistles and accessories and mainstreaming mandate and ….. Deaf kids r still reading & a writing at low levels (so are hearing kids too – this is monolingual America where we cant even get our dominant language right)

So as the 2nd wave of Oralism has been roaring across the ocean and headed towards a Deaf school near you – the FACTS of the matter are:

AG Bell association has been aiding and abating this tsunami – it has been ACTIVE in trying to destroy Deaf culture and one of its main pillars – American Sign Language.  Yes indeedy it has

Oralism, AVT+CIs, mainstreaming FAIL – by and large for the greatest number – they FAIL.  They don’t fail everybody – some folks survive and succeed in conjunction with or inspite of but never BECAUSE of anyone of those 1 or the cocktail of those false prophets.

So now I bring u to Tove Skutnabb-Kangas point

–      she said CI in and of themselves are not a crime against humanity

–      she said developing oral skills in and of themselves is not a crime against humanity

BUT the coupling of CIs and oral / aural ONLYism is

It is a crime against humanity

It is a form of cultural and linguistic genocide

And that is not cool, fools

Plain and simple

See United Nations Convention on Genocide

There is a war of attrition going on

They will loose

Hatred, bigotry and injustice NEVER win when we have freedom fighters on the move

But we must move folks

We must move out of text boxes and the blogsphere and push our feet to the pavement – see Jeannette Johnson’s call for a march on Washington for
Spring 2012

and in DC this July 21-23 is AG Bell Listening and Spoken Symposium where the PROFESSIONALS will be gathering

(NOTE: the title “Listening and Spoken Language” – isn’t that bad English?  or is it bad ASL?  or is it PSE?  whatever it is – it seems a bit ODD – like bad grammar, no? – i mean verb agreement anybody? – but i aint no grammar professional and i certainly aint one to talk about bad grammar – just saying…. that there is an ODD title – AG Bell Listening and Spoken Language Symposium – huh?)

We must stand and stand again because ONE is TOO MANY

One person being told “u r not enuf “and” u r not ok unless u can speak and hear and act like they do” – that there is audism and that is one too many

Genocides have been perpetrated against disenfranchised groups throughout history – cultures and languages and PEOPLES have been literally wiped off the face of this planet

That is NOT cool

Yes we will always have Deaf folks on this planet – but Deaf folks as a PEOPLE – people of the handeye (a cultural and linguistic minority) ARE at risk in the…

war of attrition

The only thing that has ever SAVED the disenfranchised from oppression has been themselves – standing up, speaking up, acting up

They have NOT been saved by depending on the kindness of others

They have NOT been saved by resorting to exhortation or returned violence

They have NOT been saved by keeping their heads buried in the sand

They have NOT been saved by hyperboles and over dramatizing things

They have NOT been saved by denial and chastising

They HAVE been saved by the truth –

By seeking it and sharing it and standing by it

And by LOVE

Eyes of my Eyes are Open

_~ ee Cummings

SO AG Bell Assoc….

the clock is a ticking

and the bell is a tolling

can you hear us now?

How about now?

will u choose to be part of the “final solution” or part of justice and positive peace.  it is time for u to undue ur shameful legacy and time for you to promote Deaf children’s right to a natural and fully accessible sign language (not just give lipservice).  we see you AG Bell & co.


(True peace is not merely the absence of tension: it is the presence of justice. ~ MLK Jr)

Patti Durr

“Promote Deaf children’s right to education by recognizing linguistic rights. Deaf children should have early exposure to sign language and be educated as multilinguals in reading and writing. Train teachers in sign language and provide accessible educational material.” World Health Organization, World Report on Disability, 2011  (page 227).


53 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. deafaccents
    Jun 17, 2011 @ 14:39:44

    See? What a write! See! Now I ain’t that deaf nuts, the very same one 20 yrs ago. Let’s roll with hands…

  2. Michele Westfall Ketcham
    Jun 17, 2011 @ 15:55:25

    Alexander Graham Bell may have said (figuratively): “you are children of a lesser god my darling but if u talk like me and walk like me, u shall inherit the earth”…

    But the truth is, it is a MYTH. Even if the deaf person works her/his butt off and uses her/his voice well, and walks well, the fact is, s/he will still *never* inherit the earth.

    Otherwise why would oralists, late deafened, HOH, etc keep joining the Deaf community?

  3. Michele Westfall Ketcham
    Jun 17, 2011 @ 16:14:00

    Also…that VOICE organization in Canada at least is honest about what it wants. They’re sick, but at least they’re not lying or in denial about what they want.

    I suspect that if the rest of the hearing society was as honest as that organization, it would serve as a very quick wake-up call for all these deaf people who are currently in the middle. It’d force them to take positions in a hurry.

  4. MZ
    Jun 17, 2011 @ 20:17:36

    the link to that organization, pls, michele?

  5. patti
    Jun 17, 2011 @ 21:59:20

    deafaccents – nah u aint nuts – just awake

    michele – even if those folks don’t join the Deaf community, they do self-report less than egalitarian experiences in the assimilation via mainstreaming so yep – the ability to speak and hear is not the cure-all

    MZ – perhaps michele is referring to this



  6. Michele Westfall Ketcham
    Jun 17, 2011 @ 22:19:24

    MZ, Patti gave you the correct link. But you can pay close attention to the strategic goals of VOICE…

  7. ridor
    Jun 18, 2011 @ 07:27:00

    This is quite powerful entry, Patti. I have nothing to add but to applaud you for doing this!


  8. patti
    Jun 18, 2011 @ 22:32:34

    michele – thanks for adding the link to the annual report

    surprised they could get the ministry of education in ontario to fund their mentorship and training program given that it excludes sign language – especially in light of WHO, ICED 2010, UN CRPD, and WFD doctrines as well as this latest article

    also a bit alarming to see this connection between the ministry of education in ontario and VOICES given how the Ontario govt stepped in to provide free cochlear implants to some kids

    R- thanks for the support. the truths gotta flow



  9. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 19, 2011 @ 22:18:51

    The problem with this rant is that it is 99% focused on the past, rather than the future. For G-D sakes, MOVE ON! Parents don’t want to hear about what happened in1880 in Europe. WHat does that have to do with THEIR child born in 2011?

    Second, the biggest myth that you are perpetuating is that the majority of people with a hearing loss use ASL. The fact simply do not bear that out. There are 32,000,000 people in the US with hearing loss, and between 300-500,000 ASL users (and that includes CODAs). The fact is, ASL users are a very small minority and there simply aren’t millions of dissatified oral adults “flocking” to ASL and the Deaf community.

  10. deafa
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 03:43:41

    Does AGBell exist today? yep. is AGBell philosophy of deaf the same today as it was in 1880? yep. Does ASL exist today? yep.

    so yep, what happened in 1880 is still important.

  11. MZ
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 04:07:30

    ms kat’s mom, if you don’t like it here, then don’t come here. don’t you go around dissing and ordering deaf people what to do!

    as history buffs know, history repeats itself if we don’t heed to life’s lessons.

  12. A Deaf Pundit
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 05:00:12

    Hi Patti,

    Thanks for the mention about the possibility of a Deaf Rights march in May 2012. I’m working on seeing if it can happen, and will definitely update you and everyone when I get information that I can share. 🙂

  13. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 12:21:32

    I guess I incorrectly assumed that the whole point was to get deaf children more access to ASL. If not, then you are right, this is not where I belong. If the point is simply to complain, whine and moan, then yeah, I’ll leave. But if anyone actually cares to help deaf children of hearing parents WANT to give thier child ASL in addition to spoken language, then you need to understand the parents.

  14. patti
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 12:26:40

    MKM – you have incorrect info in your comment
    1. 99% of this post is not about the past. a great deal of it is about current times and as MZ noted if we do not study history we are doomed to repeat it

    WE DO NOT WANT A REPEAT OF reign of ORALISM (oral / aural ONLYism) – it failed then and it will fail again

    2. Many parents DO want to understand the historical context and the TRUTH of what Deaf folks have been experiencing in CURRENT times as a result of Oralism
    (note that in my post i did NOT focus on Milan 1880 at all – nice spinning there MKM)

    3. No where did i say that the majority of folks with a hearing loss use ASL

    my goodness MKM – what are u playing at?

    smoke and mirrors skills – u have not. – we have our reading glasses on, our eyes and our hearts open

    now re: “MOVE ON” – MKM we have every right to be outraged by that command of yours. i myself am not outraged because it saddens me more than outrages me and i also know its just a deflection technique and i am hopefully u dont sincerely mean to be telling Deaf folks not to care about their past, present or future even though it sounds like that is what u r saying.

    i have seen MANY people say MOVE ON to Jewish people re: the Shoah – they say the Holocaust never happened or it never happened at the extent that folks try to say or they say other groups were persecuted and targeted too or…. and when folks bring out all the truths – the testimonies, the photos, the footage, the shoes, the tattoos, the gas chambers, etc etc then they resort to saying:

    “Well, it happened a long time ago and Jewish people need to MOVE ON.”

    Oh my heavens – that hurts me so much. I have had folks say this to my face and I am not Jewish – i am committed to sharing the true stories of survivors and those who perished (most especially of Deaf people because their stories are often lost or overlooked) and sometimes after i have shared – i will come face to face with someone who says – the Holocaust was a long time ago. Jewish people need to move on. The war ended 66 Years ago is considered a long time ago??????

    not really

    130 years ago is a long time ago?????

    not really

    the arrogance of humans on this planet that we measure things by our own life-time solely and not on the whole continuum of life on this planet

    66 years, 130 years, 200 years – this is RECENT history in the grand scope of things

    and the fact that these atrocities and injustices happened in modern / recent times is appalling and flabbergasting and that u, MKM, would suggest that we do not care about the fact that children were put into little black isolation rooms in their SCHOOLS, that children are CURRENTLY being isolated if they sign during lunch, that children sometime get shocks from their cochlear implants is….


    we are talking about TRUE history

    it is OURstory

    and one is too many – and it is more than just one MKM

    and we will not be denied the right to sing it

    we will not be denied the right to sign

    the two are interconnected and i see and i understand why u r trying to deny us this right just as the little girl in the 2nd video at kat’s school kept trying to deny the little boy in red from gesturing and signing during the concert

    we will not be DENIED MKM

    so yep we are not a majority but there are some folks who want to sign and they should have the right to (see little boy in red for a CURRENT example) and there are some folks who dont know they want it because they have never been afforded the opportunity and because the stigma associated with it may make them shun it

    like when Jay Wyant, former board president of AG Bell Association, signed a few signs with Ruthie Jordan on a video and a member of AG Bell associate wrote in to criticize him for using signing.

    Yep Mr Wyant too got his hands slapped for showing a wee few signs – an adult Deaf man with cochlear implants and the president of an association for Deaf And Hard of Hearing people was being criticized and chastising simply for demonstrating his wee knowledge of another language

    what is up with that MKM?

    how can we MOVE ON from that if u r all so busy denying that language bigotry – linguicism, phonocentrism, audism, and paternalism still exist TODAY?

    u are welcome here at People of the Eye. just know it is a place of truths – not myth making or attacking or wagging the dog or the finger at us as if we are children of a lesser god – cuz we aint

    i am being firm with love here cuz time is a wasting and breaking through some folks DENIAL requires being forthright and “speaking their language.”

    MKM – we are moving on and we are on the move and that is REALLY what is upsetting you.

    I gotcha (meaning i understand u) and i love u and Kat

    waking up is hard to do.

    ya basta – folks



  15. patti
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 12:44:17

    wow MKM – ur 2nd comment came in while i was typing my comment above

    i assume ur 2nd comment is in response to MZ – and ill let her reply as she sees fit

    in response to ur 2nd comment MKM – i am reminded that i offered to VP chat with u in the past. I am happy to have a one on one dialogue with u if u so desire. just let me know.

    re: reaching out to parents (hearing and Deaf alike) – i believe many of us do that in various ways

    i dont think u need to worry about our approach or our whining and moaning

    cuz that is just another technique folks use once the DENIALS and DEFLECTIONS and “MOVE ON” commands get busted, they then move on to say “u all are just whining and moaning” and “it wont be effective” etc

    hmmmm who is really whining and moaning here?
    (added now: and PROJECTION! ever noticed how they whine and moan about our “whining and moaning” geez could ya get any more obvious folks?)

    truths mkm – we demand truths at the “People of the Eye” place

    if u care to vp or connect – let me know – thur or fri might be doable for me.



  16. patti
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 12:45:07


    YEP to all ur YEPs and thank u



  17. patti
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 12:46:02

    Deaf Pundit

    ya hoo – im glad u r working on that march for may 2012

    many folks ready and rearing to go



  18. MZ
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 14:33:15

    to miss kat’s mom, do i understand hearing parents? very well. my parents are hearing and i was raised orally. i didn’t learn sign language until i went to college. however, i still retain my oral skills. the majority of deaf people started with the oral method before they learned sign language. sadly some of the oral students nowadays are still transferring to deaf schools, some with minimal or non-existent linguistic skills. you blame it on the negligence of parents, never mind that some were diligent in adhering to the avt methods. i’ve been observing the c.i. kids for a long time, not only those who fare well, but also those doing not so good.

    in fact, the scornful attitude you showed toward asl deaf people since you went to that oral program last summer was the same attitude i was taught at my oral school in my early childhood before i transferred to hearing schools. that part of the oral education program hadn’t changed. I was told by reliable sources of parents covering the eyes of their oral kids and scurried them away when asl deaf adults showed up in an event only few weeks ago. my parents were taught that asl was the bad wolf, too. you forcing miss kat to wear her c.i. when it was obviously causing her tremendous discomfort (a substitute for another word pain to assure the parents it’s not really pain). we were forced to wear instruments painful to our ears, too. so it seems not much had changed over the years as you think.

    the person you admonished is not an ignorant person. she has a master’s degree and, in fact, teaches at a university. many commenters, also well educated with graduate degrees, exhibit skepticism. after all, they grew up in the system where they witnessed the parents being snowed by the oracy system. this may be all new to you, but we’ve seen it all. the cycle hasn’t been broken. unfortunately because the parents chose not to listen to the byproducts of the oral system but invalidate and diss them, this cycle will continue.

  19. Trackback: My reply to MKM “move on” command « PEOPLE OF THE EYE -…first, last, and all the time” – g. veditz 1910
  20. Dianrez
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 17:34:40

    Interesting that a few people are attempting to put down several Deaf professionals with Master’s degrees (and a Ph.D or two) who have both personal and professional experience with growing up Deaf. Not only that, but also familiar with friends and students and clients’ own experiences.

    A Deaf administrator told me this: a parent had come to his superior objecting to their child being placed in a classroom headed by a Deaf teacher. The superior listened for a half hour of parental concerns about speech modeling and so on, then incredulously exclaimed, “You want to prevent your child from becoming a teacher of deaf children, too?”

    Parents can know their own child best and be their child’s best advocate, but at the same time can be ignorant of future implications. The child will not be a child forever, so the wise parent listens to the masses of Deaf adults in the nation. They were deaf children too.

  21. deafa
    Jun 20, 2011 @ 19:21:24

    me: I only went to community college for two years, took college english, calculus1 and 2,ecomonic1 and 2, and many other general college courses. but no degree because I couldn’t decide( i kept changing my major) but hey thats better than nothing right? I have plenty of job experiences too like nursing assistant.

    if only I can remember everything I learned. it was over 10 years ago.

  22. Trackback: Deafhood Discussions » answer to MZ qq re: AG Bell destroying Deaf Culture
  23. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 21, 2011 @ 18:05:53

    None of you are speaking to how to actually encourage parents to add ASL to spoken language. Parents simply will not choose ASL as the primary language of their children until they know why they should. If people continue to call the parents names, say that they are genocidal maniacs, and that oralism and CIs don’t work (which they can see with their own eyes, every single day, DO work) they are simply going to write you off as extremists who don’t understand that the world has changed.

    Again, every school that my daughter has attended has had deaf professionals as well as Deaf parents.

    I have never insulted anyone here. I haven’t called names, or dimishd others experiences. I have simply said that the world has massively changed in that last 20 years (let alone 130) and that if you continue to be bitter and cling to the past, you will be left behind.

  24. Dianrez
    Jun 21, 2011 @ 18:59:39

    Miss Kat’s mom, where are you being called names? As for encouraging ASL, that has been a consistent theme of nearly every Deaf blogger and Deaf professional’s writings for many years now.

    We all are willing to admit to some CI successes. We just don’t believe that the success rate is near as high as the industries claim. Also, in our eyes, success is not measured by audiograms or ability to struggle along with hearing children in regular classrooms.

    The current series of Deaf blogs is about efforts to eradicate deafness (i.e. do away with Deaf people and ASL and cultural values). Nowadays we are seeing more evidence of financial and medical pushes to do just that. One oral blogger even compared it to eradication of leper colonies.

    From a Hearing perspective, that might look like a Good Thing. Some thought it a Good Thing to eliminate certain persons but are now recorded in history books as um, not nice people. (One might point out that lepers wished to be cured, but Jews and Deaf people do not see themselves as diseased.)

    This is one leg of the approach to promoting ASL and Deaf Culture values: educating out the attitudes and stigmas that prevents our being accepted as a valuable part of society. It isn’t an attack on parents that have placed faith in CIs and AVT as key to their child’s success; but an attempt to instil awareness that there is more to our people than hearing limitations.

  25. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 21, 2011 @ 19:31:00

    I’m being called names every single day. I even had several posters come to my blog and tell me that I have psychiatric issues and need medication. I have been called a liar, and told that my child will grow up to hate me. I had a person tell me that my child should be taken away from me and given to a Deaf family since I obviously don’t know how to raise her and do not love her. I had people threaten to come to my child’s school and look for her and told me that i “raped” my child’s head.

    As for “curing” deafness…I don’t know. I think it would be lovely if medications were improved, as to no longer have side effects like losing hearing. I think that preventing Rubella and CMV infections is great and I believe it is very important to educate teens about hearing protection and how to safely enjoy music. If that means I am “ending deafness”, I’m ok with it. (Notice that I did NOT say I support genetic testing or embryo selection.)

    As for the CI successes, you know that I don’t define success as mainstreaming. Why even throw that out there? To me success is simply that a person enjoys wearing the device and continues to do that.

    And back to encouraging ASL, I have yet to see people doing it. I see posts EVERY SINGLE DAY about AG Bell and Milan and how oralism “kills”. But where are the posts reaching out to parents? I know for a fact that newly ID’ed families search the web for information and what are they finding? Are they finding a community with open arms, providing resources to help their family begin the journey of learning ASL? Do they find people who encourage them to consider bimodal bilingualism? Or do they find angry raants against CIs and spoken language? People telling them all the things I have been told? Do they find blog after blog about how oralism doean’t work and that voice-off ASL is the ONLY way their child will ever learn? Really, look around and read from their perspective and see what a poor parent would see…

  26. Dianrez
    Jun 21, 2011 @ 20:04:02

    Miss Kat’s mom, I’m wholeheartedly with you on the first three paragraphs of your reply above. However, the fourth paragraph missed something: the Bell organizations, CI and AVT industries and their affiliates are actively pushing their agendas. To the max. Have been for decades. Their PR machines outstrip everything that the Deaf community has. Their publishing arms produce glossy, professionally written and photographed materials designed to entice parents with their offerings of hope, amelioration, success and TALKING kids.

    Your point about “rants” is well taken. Sometimes it seems like one is fighting Niagara Falls with a single sandbag. Perhaps parents like yourself should tell us EXACTLY what to say to present a decent balance to the industries’ claims.

  27. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 21, 2011 @ 20:24:15

    I would say that it is important to NEVER deny that deaf children can hear and speak. They can, and do, and many do it extrememly well and never need or want to use anything else. The moment you say that CIs don’t work or that these schools don’t produce intellegent capable kids, is the moment you lose complete credibility. They KNOW these things work, they can see it with their eyes, in their homes, every day.

    Next, never focus on the past. Don’t talk about how abusive oral schools are, because, again, they go to these schools and can see that it isn’t true.

    I would also choose to not focus on ASL as the primary language. Parents, generally, will not be accepting of this. If we show that ASL can be used in conjunction with spoken language, families will be much more accepting. Explain the benefits of signing, the opportunities that come with it and the times where it will be especially useful. (But, again, be aware that you are NOT tearing down spoken language to build up ASL. There is no reason for that, and, in my experience, the oralist don’t do it, so it looks like sour grapes.)

    We need to parade around successful bimodal kids. Kids who hear and speak and sign. Ask them why they like doing both. Have camps for oral kids to learn ASL, staffed by staff who use ASL and have implants and hearing aids too.

    Raise standards in Deaf schools, and no more complaining about oral failures. Parents don’t care why the kids aren’t at grade level, they just know that they don’t want to put their kid in a failing school. Deaf schools also need to lose the “voice off” policy. If you want to have hearing parents send their child to your school, they need to be given access to amazing therapists just like they would get at an oral school. They need to be assured that they will be taught spoken English in addition to ASL. The school should be fully bilingual. I don’t know how to do it, but I hear the people at The Learning Center do. They have a bilingual-bimodal school. They use both spoken English and ASL as the language of instruction in their classes. The kids have ASL and spoken English pull outs. Assessments in both languages. BOTH languages are fully valued. Neither is more important.

    So, those are just a few ideas off the top of my head. Again, just my opinion, because you asked.

  28. DeafAccents
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 03:24:15

    To MKM… 100% ASL will help to improve a deaf child’s speaking skill… better than on-going teaching orally to a deaf child… as long as this child gets the ASL-qualified teacher of the Deaf or ASL-qualified speech teacher … get it? I read and read… I DON’T SEE anyone who is against the deaf child who wants to speak… correctly, not a struggle to express… get it? Without ASL, 100% inclusion is NOT the word… get it?

  29. MZ
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 12:41:54

    no more complaining of oral failures? you mean like sweeping them under the carpet? pretending that all kids with cochlear implants are doing well and some not being sent to deaf schools? tell the whole world that the cochlear implants are indeed the miracle they proclaim it to be and that it will help all deaf kids?

    improving the scholastic improvements in deaf schools? mighty hard when oral kids in mainstreamed schools aren’t doing well and being sent to deaf schools where the teachers try to undo the damage from the mainstreamed programs and help the students catch up with their academics. unlike the private oral schools, the state schools are required to admit all deaf students and unfairly get the blame for poor performances of oral students transferring from other programs.

    many deaf oral kids may do extremely well with the cochlear implants. again we also have many not doing well with the cochlear implants. that is an undeniable fact. to imply otherwise is promoting a false statement to the parents. they need to hear both sides of the cochlear implants. you apparently want the deaf advocates to shut up and show happy faces to the parents. well, they aren’t invested in promoting false statements. as long as the avt system and the parents are invested in covering up the flaws, some deaf people will make sure that these flaws aren’t hidden from the public. by the way, why don’t you want the parents to know the full truth of the cochlear implants and the avt programs? wouldn’t you want to be fully informed when you explore this option? i find this peculiar.

    some hearing parents are exceptionally fond of lumping deaf people into one group. if a deaf person speaks ill of cochlear implants, obviously that one must be against all cochlear implants. don’t stereotype all deaf people. the deaf community is exceptionally diverse. some deaf people, like me, believe that the parents have the final say in how to raise their children. some kids do exceptionally well with cochlear implants, too, but yet others fail to master the spoken language. the full truth about cochlear implants must be revealed. they do work. they also do not work. unfortunately i’m finding out that deaf kids are still being restrained against their will in the oral programs, contrary to the claims of the parents. until very recently, i thought that was a thing from the past. this is another evidence that the oral schools are still maintaining the same behaviors practiced in the past. whether the parents realize it or not, they are destroying their own credibility by making false claims. i would suggest the parents to think twice before assuming the statements some deaf people make are ‘ancient’. the parents will also need to look at their attitudes. if they are scornful and look down on deaf people, they are teaching their deaf children being deaf is distasteful. i’m sure the parents don’t want their deaf oral kids to develop severe inferiority complex by their own parents showing poor attitude to deaf people.

  30. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 14:40:24

    It is a fight for parents hearts and minds, if you are negative and nasty, you will continue to lose. It is as simple as that.

    As for ASL improving speech. Nope, there is nothing to back that up. That is like saying that learning to knit will improve my soccer game. They are completely unrelated. (And the research shows that kids in oral only schools have better speech and spoken language than kids in schools that use both. Just FYI.)

  31. MZ
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 16:00:16

    perhaps you should look at your attitude before you start criticizing others.

    i suggest you update your research regarding asl not helping speech. research had already documented that deaf children with c.i. who are already using asl pick up speech and listening skills faster than the c.i. kids with no exposure to asl.

  32. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 17:01:49

    No, the research shows kids with a smaller language delay pick up language faster. It is regardless of what language it is. The kids with early spoken language skills do just as good as the kids who use ASL. It is early language that matters, not which language they use. Also, the research shows that kids who are oral only have better spoken language skills than those who use both. (Read ANYTHING Maarschalk has written in the last 5 years…)

    I have been personally attack ad naseum and I am actually one of the 5% of parents who DO learn sign and use it. I can’t imagine what AV advocates get thrown at them.

  33. A Deaf Pundit
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 17:40:28

    And once again, MKM ignores the Deaf Community’s points, and makes it all about her and her child.

    I think it’s obvious that her purpose is not to have an actual debate that will clarify things for the better, but rather, have us collectively OBEY her commands, as if we are children.

    Never mind that we recognize that the CI does work for some. Never mind that we recognize that speech does help some children.

    No…. it is ALL about us hurting poor her and the other hearing people’s when they are confronted with the fact that the CI does not 100% work, and the LSL approach does NOT 100% work. Never mind the fact that many of us are professionals in our fields, and have extensive experience with these issues. Never mind the fact that the majority of us in the Deaf Community does respect parental choices.

    Get this, ma’m… we are not going to obey you. We will not shut up. We will take this message to the streets, to the court system, to every corner of the country, until ASL is fully recognized and parents given the FULL and appropriate information on American Sign Language.

    Don’t like it? TOO BAD! The Constitution applies just as much to us as it does to you.

  34. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 18:20:43

    Dianrez asked me to explain how to get more parents to want to include ASL and to see Deaf schools as an option. I responded. I have no idea how that is “playing the victim”, so whatever. If you are not interested in building bridges with families, keep screaming and you will continue to get the exact same results you have been getting…(Deaf schools closing, parents doing oral only, no information about ASL being distributed, Deaf mentor programs being cut, and on and on). If you want to be right, stay on the same path. If you want to make an actual difference, perhaps you should speak to the people who are actually making the decisions, THE PARENTS.

  35. MZ
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 18:31:32

    let me clarify: an asl child wearing a c.i. picks up speech and listening skills quicker than a child with no language foundation, when they are both implanted at the same age and given the same exposure to spoken language. this means a child with no language background will acquire a spoken language slower than a child with ASL background, with all the variables controlled. futhermore it is true that any deaf child with a linguistic foundation will speak and listen quicker, for example, children deafened by meningitis. however, most of the prelingually deaf oral kids were not exposed to a spoken language prior to their cochlear implants. as you know, some children don’t fare too well with c.i. and yes there are some, as much as you want to deny, and no, it’s not always due to the negligence of their parents. should they fail to pick up the spoken language, usually by then, precious time had been lost and the remaining time in linguistic acquisition period had dwindled. i’ve seen countless oral proponents, including other parents, telling parents concerned about the failure of their children to pick up adequate language.. be patient, the child will pick it up, give the child more time.. by the time they realize that the child isn’t going to improve at all, the child has very limited or no remaining time to establish a linguistic base, using a visible language

    many poorly designed studies using a small sample abound. often they are carried out by biased researchers with funding from the avt and/or ci foundations. the variables are not controlled. you can show me a group of c.i. oral kids with an excellent command of spoken english. i can easily show you a group of c.i. oral kids with poor mastery of spoken english. Also i can easily show you groups of asl children with excellent mastery of english, whether they have c.i. or not. this isn’t the real issue.

    what the majority of us want to is see the child develop a solid linguistic foundation, regardless whether it is a spoken language or sign language, before the critical period of their linguistic acquisition close its window. we are tired of seeing deaf children from oral programs showing up in deaf schools with limited linguistic knowledge years later. that’s the real issue.

  36. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 19:01:43

    And I don’t disagree. But I am saying that there are kids who are doing great, so those who advocate against choice are wrong. I have never said that there aren’t kids who don’t do well. But yes, I put most of the responsibilty on parents. The research shows that the devices work, so why aren’t they getting the same kind of benefit that most children do, I believe it lies in the follow up.

    I have stated, many times, even in comments on this very blog, that Deaf schools need to adapt so that they can serve students who want to and do use spoken language. When we can bring together good spoken language services WITH ASL, then kids will have access to BOTH and kids won’t get left behind. Unfortunately, that isn’t happening.

  37. Shel
    Jun 22, 2011 @ 23:26:39

    The problem, MKM, is MANY of the parents have NOT received complete, unbiased information. Some people who blame parents for being lazy and not following up are being indisgenious at best. If you look at many websites, you will note that there are many that emphasize the importance of HEAR AND SPEAK while placing a low emphasis on ASL…only paying lip service to it.

    Just take a gander at my post, which discusses the website “Communicate With Your Child” on Note the emphasis on hearing, and that is what MANY parents get. So, do we blame the parents? NOPE. Yet, some have the sheer gall of calling parents of Deaf children who don’t benefit from CI lazy! I, for one, REFUSE to call those parents lazy. Most parents we know, including those with children who struggle, want the best for their children, but heed misguided and wrongheaded advice from professionals who operate on the premise that Deaf people MUST learn to listen and speak in order to ‘FIT IN” with the majority.

    As long as parents are NOT getting all the information… as long as they receive biased information, we will dance again, and again in the 130-year-old tango. We WILL dance until the audist establishment yields. We will stop dancing when people recognize that ASL is as viable as English, and is no longer dismissed by society, by the education system, or by the pathological medical system. We will stop dancing when Hearing people actually practice the LISTENING part of the oralist ideology and HEAR our stories that continues even on June 22, 2011. We will stop dancing when society quits dismissing our experiences and telling us to move on. We will stop dancing when society accepts us as FULL human beings with our culture and language. We will stop dancing when society stops telling us to adapt, and stops expecting Deaf schools to adapt to the Hearing values at the detriment of ASL and culture.

    The day will come when:
    • we are treated with dignity and respect,
    • we are allowed as “Deaf citizens to assist parents of Deaf infants, children and youth in the appreciation of the Deaf culture and sign languages.”
    • all nations “include the sign languages of their Deaf citizens as legitimate languages of these Nations and to treat them as equal to those of the hearing majority.”
    • All identified Deaf infants are referred to “regional and national organizations of the Deaf, schools and programs for the Deaf to support with early intervention”
    • All Deaf citizens are allowed to “be proud, confident, productive, creative and enabling citizens…” (see ICED Accord for the Future.)

    THAT is the day when the 130-plus years-old tango will finally stop. That is the day we will finally dance in joy. That is the day we shout in ASL… PAH! HALLELUJAH!

    Until then, kindly do NOT tell us to move on. Do not tell us that it’s the Deaf schools that need to adapt. Our Deaf schools, and our Deaf children and adults have done ALL the adapting we have had to in the last 100-plus years. Yet, society has done almost nothing to voluntarily to adapt to us. Note the term “VOLUNTARILY”.

    We have had to fight for every right we earned. We are still fighting for respect for our culture and language, ASL. We are still fighting for our right to be treated as first class citizens. We are still fighting to have the stigma removed from us, our language and culture.

    How dare you dismiss our experiences and tell us to move on, especially now that we see videos of children’s signs being suppressed? How dare you tell us to move on when we see videos of children screaming from the pain generated by CIs while the hearts of grandmothers shatter? These videos have come up in 2010 and 2011!

    How dare you tell us that we have to be the ones to adapt when we have done nothing but from infancy? How dare you tell us that Deaf schools have to adapt when Deaf schools are barely healing from the claws of the oralist ideology that ruled the world since Milan 1880 and devastated the lives of countless Deaf children?

    It is NOT the Deaf schools that need to adapt. This systemic audism all begins in INFANCY and early childhood. THAT is where the battle rages. But our battles have never been with you parents. Parents of Deaf children are precious to us, whether you believe it or not.

    Our battle is with systemic and institutionalized audism, both blatant and subtle. You don’t see what we Deaf people see TODAY. We WILL NOT MOVE ON, as long as we see injustices continuing to be perpetuated on children TODAY, and on parents who don’t have full information.

    It is the audist establishment that MUST change, and Deafpundit is correct; this involves policymakers, educators, and others with power. We have much to do.

  38. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 23, 2011 @ 00:09:45

    Then stay on your soapbox and lose the battle. It’s as ssimple as that.

  39. MZ
    Jun 23, 2011 @ 00:14:21

    mkm, i’m glad we do agree on some parts, though we will need to disagree regarding the responsibility of the parents. i agree with you about some parents who could have done more, but weren’t able to due to limited resources. but i’ve also seen some parents really trying hard to follow the avt program and for some unknown reason, the brains of the deaf oral children using c.i. didn’t click well with the cochlear implants.

    you are a rare exception. you exposed your daughter to both asl and avt programs. because of your willingness to have your daughter learn asl when she wasn’t eligible for a cochlear implant, she is doing very well now due to a solid linguistic base. the majority of the parents in avt programs aren’t like you. they believe erroneously that asl will damage the oral development of their deaf kids. it sure didn’t hurt your kat, did it? i think it helped her acquire her oracy skills much quicker. i recalled how impressed and pleased you were with her progress. her oral teachers were surprised and thrilled, too.

    two things puzzle me: the goal of the avt program is to have the deaf oral children be implanted as young as possible to minimize the length of linguistic delay and be mainstreamed by kindergarten or first grade. so why would they want their students attend a deaf school with infant-parent program to 12th grade?

    also the avt philosophy forbids asl. like you said, many schools either offer bi bi programs or avt/oral programs. these two programs are incompatible. why would the avt advocate want to place deaf oral students in deaf schools where they will be exposed to asl? would a segregation between the oral deaf students and asl students be established like one school did before its avt program was transferred to a public school? to this day, i still receive stories from deaf adults about hearing parents scurrying their deaf oral kids away from them. how would they feel about their kids meeting asl deaf schoolmates?

    personally i think it’ll be great for the avt students to be exposed to asl. but i cannot see the avt proponents suddenly agreeing it’s ok for their students to see asl.

  40. Miss Kat's mom
    Jun 23, 2011 @ 00:26:08

    That is why we need to have schools that welcome both. If there had been a program that encoraged and taught spoken language in addition to ASL, I would have never moved my child to an oral only program. I believe that many parents WANT their children to do both, but there are NO options for that. I don’t believe that most parents think ASL is “low” or inferior. I DO think that they KNOW that time is of the essence for learning to listen (which is true). When Deaf schools are voice off, don’t allow auditory training, and do “survival speech” for 20 minutes a week, parents are not going to accept that, and are going to be driven to the other side.

  41. handeyes
    Jun 23, 2011 @ 14:01:46

    heye all

    im away and have shoddy internet access so i aint been able to comment but i want to thank ya all for the dialogue and the effort.

    MKM – we have had this dance before. If u truly believe that a “combined” program is in order then may i suggest (since u have been so enthuasastic about making suggestions at us) that u make efforts to see a combined program organized and materialize. there are many 1/2 English and 1/2 Spanish (or other foreign language) programs in the U.S.

    If you feel that a program that spends half of its day being English oral /aural ONLY and half of its day being ASL then i would love to see you put forth that effort.


  42. MZ
    Jun 24, 2011 @ 02:00:53

    mkm, maybe this will help you understand better “”

    you may not realize this, but all states are mandated by a federal law to provide a fully asl immersion program available for asl deaf kids who need this particular program. in other words, the states cannot legally shirk their responsibility to asl deaf students. should the state school closes, they are required to assume the financial responsibility of sending deaf students to another residential school out of state.

    you need to considerate that not all deaf students have the same needs as your child and they have the right to a program that meets their needs. mixing an oral program and a deaf program in the same building is a violation of ieps of some students. keep in mind that the state schools are usually the sole place in their states where asl students can be fully immersed.

  43. Dianrez
    Jun 24, 2011 @ 05:45:43

    I’m not seeing that there is opposition to comprehensive programs that includes both ASL and oral approaches, except from pure oralists.

    Half days in ASL and oral approaches sounds like an interesting EXPERIMENT that would work best if all students were engaged in it, including those with more oral skills. As a compromise, it may be more parentally supported and students would not be in a bitter split between the two approaches that divides the future Deaf community. Who knows, if this is consistently applied from the cradle onwards, it could raise the average achievement scores.

    This business about CI-AVT demanding full concentration on oral development only is a lot of hooey with no basis except theoretical. A half and half program gets around that.

  44. deafa
    Jun 24, 2011 @ 13:52:55

    The Learning Center in Massachusetts is somewhat using that method

  45. deafa
    Jun 24, 2011 @ 13:56:46

    here’s the link

    here’s another option:

  46. MZ
    Jun 24, 2011 @ 16:03:20

    yes, there are some opposition to half a day bi bi program and half a day oral/avt program if all kids are required to participate in both programs. since some deaf kids don’t have oral skills, they will be left behind in the oral classes. For some kids with some oral skills, their parents are reluctant to have them in oral classes as without sufficient residual hearing, the deaf kids may not be able to benefit fully from classroom instruction and discussions.

  47. deafa
    Jun 24, 2011 @ 16:55:49

    why don’t school often both settings, and the team of teachers/parents/child can decide how much percentage of that setting they want.

    if they want 50% ASL and 50% oral, they can have half day in ASL and the other half in oral. Or if they was 75% ASL, they can take most of the courses in ASL and 25% would be English class or few other classes in Spoken language OR provide a oral interpreter. Whichever they choose, the school must offer Spoken or ASL setting in all their courses or classes so the students/parents (Or teacher if they feel they need it more like need more English class/tutor in ASL if the parents agree) can decide.

    unless this is already done.

  48. Dianrez
    Jun 24, 2011 @ 18:59:40

    Flexibility would be ideal, Deafa. MZ, granted that kids differ in abilities, but historically and at most places today, they don’t have a choice, do they? They take what the school offers and that’s it.

    With the shrinking enrollment at schools for the deaf and narrowing budget constraints, flexibility is going to be cut to a minimum.

    Building in a set balance of offerings in the early years with an option to transfer to a unimodal school later might be best as it gives kids opportunity to learn all systems and show where they will do best.

  49. handeyes
    Jun 24, 2011 @ 20:58:28

    MZ – biggest thanks to Deaf pundits latest

    ya hoo she is rocking the truth campaign

    re: the 1/2 and 1/2 school – i was really talking to MKM cuz she has a habit of kinda wagging the finger at us and telling us what we should do and how we should do it and has yet to DO the thing she claims is so desired – ie make a program that is 1/2 and 1/2

    i dont think its the answer but i believe that she should put her money where her mouth is cuz im just a wee bit tired of all the smoke and mirrors



  50. Joseph Pietro Riolo
    Jun 25, 2011 @ 00:03:38

    I don’t know if you are very serious about the grammar of the title of the symposium. Sometimes, it is hard to tell if it was done in sarcastic tone or not.

    I will proceed on the assumption that it is serious.

    “Listening” is a gerund that acts as a noun. It comes from a verb “listen” and adding “-ing” to it forms a gerund. The gerund can act as a noun. “Reading” as in “Reading is my favorite activity” is an an example of gerund. So, “Listening Symposium” means that the symposium focuses on the area of listening in the same way as the “Reading Symposium” that focuses on reading.

    “Spoken Language” is self-explanatory. It distinguishes itself from other kinds of language such as signed languages, computer languages, artificial languages, constructed languages, natural languages, and some other kinds of languages. “Spoken Language Symposium” means that the symposium focuses on the subject area of spoken languages in the same way as the “Signed Language Symposium” that focuses on signed languages.

    Combining them together result in “Listening and Spoken Language Symposium” meaning that it focuses on the area of listening and also the area of spoken languages. It is similar to, say, “Reading, Writing and Math Symposium” that focuses on three areas of reading, writing and math.

    There is nothing ungrammatical about the title. It may not look familiar but it is not ungrammatical.

    That is, I am assuming that the inquiry is genuine.

    Regarding the latest comment made by Mishka Zena, I don’t think that it is absolutely required for a state to assume all financial responsibility to send ASL users to a residential school in other state. It seems that this can be done only after a successful lawsuit from parents. The latest issue of The Endeavor has an article that mentioned you (Mishka Zena). The title of the article is “The Case for Deaf Schools” and it is written by Mr. Todd Elliott. He explained the possible scenario where the parents sue a school district using the due process litigation. If the parents win, the state or school district may decide to send their deaf child to a residential school in other state. But, this can happen only after the parents initiates the lawsuit. And, the outcome of the litigation is always iffy. Also, Mr. Elliott seemed to overlook the scenario where the parents certainly do not want to send their deaf children to a residential school in their home state or other state. So, it is not a certainty that a state is required to provide money to send ASL users to a residential school in other state. There is a lot more information in his article and he did mention the other way which is to use the federal preemption. But, it is no longer a valid tool for my last deaf child, leaving the due process litigation as the only means.

    Joseph Pietro Riolo

    Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.

  51. handeyes
    Jun 26, 2011 @ 04:18:15

    joseph –

    thank u for the grammar lesson. i am being sincere here and not sarcastic in my gratitude. seriously u r a cool dude to make such efforts

    so u r saying it is grammatically correct. wouldnt Oral & Aural Symposium be clearer and more forthright? just seems alot clearer to me than the awkward Listening and Spoken Language Symposium. I mean a listening symposium? sounds new ageish

    thank u for the info re: Deaf school options via the Endeavors’ article – “The Case for Deaf Schools” by Mr. Todd Elliott. im gonna check that out

    re: ur options for ur son – dont think i fully understand the situation but it doesnt sound like u all are experiencing justice on that one and im sorry to learn of that. wish u all the best with it.



  52. deafa
    Jun 26, 2011 @ 18:45:04

    Well, according to my college English professor, if one word have -ing , then other should too. you should not be doing this: I like hiking, collect stamps, karate. it should be something like this: I like collecting stamps, hiking, practicing Karate. Or something like that. I am not good at English but going off my head what my Professor told me.

  53. handeyes
    Jun 27, 2011 @ 01:14:38

    ahhhh deafa – perhaps that is what was puzzling me that the endings didnt match up

    the English language is a bit twisty at times

    ahhh language variations

    thanks for sharing



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